Thasunda Brown Duckett
President and CEO, TIAA
Rent your title, but own your character.
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan Fleischmann sits down with Thasunda Brown Duckett, CEO of TIAA, to explore her inspiring journey from humble beginnings in Texas to leading one of the nation’s top financial institutions. Thasunda shares how her parents’ hard work and values shaped her commitment to inclusive capitalism and financial security for all. Reflecting on her career path through JP Morgan Chase to TIAA, she discusses the critical need for dignified retirement options, especially for employees in education, healthcare and government sectors. Throughout the conversation, Thasunda emphasizes the importance of workplace retirement plans and policy reforms to ensure every worker can access a secure and equitable retirement.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Thasunda Brown Duckett is President and Chief Executive Officer of TIAA, a leading provider of secure retirements and outcome-focused investment solutions for millions of people and thousands of institutions. She leads a company whose mission is defined by financial inclusion and opportunity – goals and values she has upheld throughout her career. Under her leadership, TIAA is expanding its mission beyond higher education to all Americans saving for retirement.
Before joining TIAA in 2021, she held several key executive roles during a 17-year career at JP Morgan Chase, including CEO of the Consumer Bank and Auto Finance. Earlier in her career, she was a Director of Emerging Markets at Fannie Mae.
Duckett serves on the boards of NIKE, Inc., Brex Inc., Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights, Sesame Workshop, National Medal of Honor Museum, Economic Club of New York, NewYork-Presbyterian, the University of Houston Board of Visitors, and the Dean’s Advisory Board for Baylor University’s Hankamer School of Business. She is also a member of the Executive Leadership Council CEO Advisory Board, Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. and Jack and Jill of America, Inc. In addition, Duckett is an appointee to the President’s Board of Advisors on Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs), The Business Council Executive Committee and the Committee for Economic Development. She also serves on the board of Business Roundtable.
Duckett has received a wide array of accolades from financial media, including Fortune, Forbes, Barron’s and American Banker. She has also been listed as one of the TIME100 Most Influential People in the World, named a CNBC ChangeMaker and inducted into the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.
Duckett has been awarded honorary degrees from several institutions including: a Doctor of Humane Laws from Howard University, and Doctor of Laws degrees from both American University and Morgan State University.
She founded the Otis and Rosie Brown Foundation in honor of her parents to recognize and reward people who use ordinary means to empower and uplift their community in extraordinary ways.
Duckett grew up in Texas and lives in Connecticut with her family. She holds a Bachelor’s degree in Finance and Marketing from the University of Houston and an MBA from Baylor University.
Clips from this Episode
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
Welcome to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm joined today by a true force in the business community and leadership. An inspiring voice, Thasunda Brown Duckett. Thasunda is the President and CEO of TIAA, the leading provider of secure retirement solutions for people working in higher education, health care, government and other fields. Her rise from humble beginnings in Texas to the top of American finance is a story of perseverance, values, vision, and true grit. Before Thasunda led major divisions of JPMorgan Chase, including Chase Consumer Banking, and Chase Auto Finance. She's a fierce advocate for equity and wealth creation, a champion of inclusive capitalism, and a passionate believer in what she calls "grace and space" leadership. Through her foundation work and board service, she continues to uplift others and drives transformational change each and every day. Thasunda was recently recognized in the Forbes 50 Over 50 list. The show's journey is not just a personal success journey, it is a journey of leadership, and leadership for the greater good. I'm excited to have her on today. I wanted her to be on the show for so long, to discuss her early influencers, her career, her lessons in leadership, and things that she's learned along the way, and to really engage with us as we can learn from her. I can promise you, we'll be inspired by her. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Thank you so much, Alan. It's great to be here.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, I really do know well, your busy life and your busy schedule—figuring out a time for us to sit down together has been a priority of mine. I have heard you—when we've talked one on one, when we were in small group settings, where we've talked in large places, where there's bigger audiences—your compassion, your composure, your honestly, your leadership, inspires people to understand that there is a way. There's a way for capitalism to work. It has actually been a bright light, and it's become even a brighter light today than ever before: the idea that if we get that right, we can get democracy right, we get everything else right, but we first have to figure out a way that we create, as we call it, inclusive capitalism. Capitalism that can include everybody, and there's a way to do it. You're very focused on people having the dignity of not only their livelihood, but the dignity in retirement and having that as well. Let's talk a little bit, because I know family is very important to you. You've spoken about starting life sitting on crates in Texas. Take us back a little bit to those early days: where you're from, and things that shaped you and your outlook. I'm sure you look back and you realize all the mentors that you may have had, and family and teachers and others potentially. Tell us a little bit about your parents, your siblings—who are the greatest influencers of your life?
Thasunda Brown Duckett
No, absolutely, you know, my dad, Otis Brown, would always say, "People see your glory, but they don't know your story." I was born in Rochester, New York. We then moved to New Jersey. And when I was in the fifth grade, we moved from New Jersey to Texas. And what's important, I would say, about that moment are a few things: my dad is a blue collar worker and so when a facility would close down, they would say, "Here's where it could be open," and you could either leave or move to that new facility. That opportunity is what led us to Texas. But I would say, before the move to Texas, growing up in the early, early years, there's a few things that I think really shaped me, and it all stems from Otis and Rosie Brown. My parents were born in the segregated south, and so I am first generation full integration, my brothers and I. And so I understand what progress looks like. And I understand what it looks like even when things are not perfect, and you can still have joy and you can still have a great upbringing. Growing up, my parents would always instill in us to reach for the moon, because even if you missed you'd be among the stars. We were anchored in our faith. My parents would always tell us, "whatever you do, you do it with excellence." And so they were always pouring in on us, making sure that we were not finding excuses. But also they were protectors. So when there were moments where we needed that level of protection, they showed up. I remember I was five years old, and I was called the N-word, and I'd never heard that word, but it didn't feel right in the context of it being said to me. I remember telling my mom, I think, while I was at the library, and my mom basically said, "that does not belong to you, and you do not own that." And at an early age, my mom would tell us that if someone says something about you that is not true, it's like delivering mail to someone's home with the wrong address. You return it to sender.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh I love that.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Yeah, you return it to sender. And so those moments—sports, we played sports growing up. So there's a love of sport and how that has given us a sense of teamwork, integrity on any given day, grit, tenacity, all the things. The importance of everyone playing a role. And so growing up in the early years, I also know what it's like to not have. I know what it's like for Otis and Rosie Brown to have big dreams, but short on money. I tell this story, I know what it's like to open up the refrigerator, and I promise you, Alan, all I saw was baking soda, but somehow, some way, we never went without eating. I know what it's like to have had a car and not have a car; to have lights on, lights off. But again, my parents gave us so much love that that gave outsized returns, regardless of the financial insecurity. I know what it's like. My parents—I talked about this love of big dreams for us. My dad would sign us up for karate, and I never got past white belt yellow stripe, or I started piano lessons, but never got past Mary Had a Little Lamb. So there was a lot of ambition, a lot of dreams, but again, the finances weren't there. When we moved to Texas, we moved with everything that we owned in a car. And so it's my brothers—I have two brothers, myself, my mom and dad—and we drive to Texas. If you can think about five people in a car with everything that you own, it should not be a surprise that when we moved to Texas, we started with cratesuntil we could get to a Rent-A-Center to get furniture. But all of those moments, Alan, in those early, early years, they taught me so much that my mom and dad are my heroes. They are my foundation. The relationship I have with my brother's, one who passed away suddenly a few years ago. But this love of family, this love of perspective, this love of understanding that your circumstances do not define who you are, and understanding that even when things are hard, you still keep going. And I think my parents embodied that, and they also taught me history and understanding that everything that I've been able to achieve, there is no "I" in it. Yes, I worked hard, but it was never alone. Whether that's the shoulders of giants that I stand on from a historical context, I always say, it was the cooks and the janitors and the secretaries that introduced my melanin and gender into corporate America. That over time, I can be in this phenomenal role. In understanding that no matter how smart I may be, no matter how much love of business I may have, there was a point in time that that just could not have been, if it would not have been for people who came before me. And so there's a lot of gratitude and appreciation for the unsung heroes that over time, created an opportunity for me to be in the roles that I've had the privilege to have the roles that I've had and the privilege to be in the role I am today.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that I can, you know, I can feel your mother and father when you're talking. I can sense their wisdom and their thoughtfulness, and I love "return to sender." I will use that. I will credit you forever.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
It's yours!
Alan Fleischmann
It's such a powerful message that just because it was sent your way, doesn't mean it was meant for you, or that is yours to hold on to. Just send it back.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Just send it back.
Alan Fleischmann
That is such a powerful thing, and it's such an important message. Actually, I'm curious. You only have brothers? You're the only sister?
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Yes.
Alan Fleischmann
And what number are you of the kids?
Thasunda Brown Duckett
I'm in the middle. So, I'm in the middle. I'm the only girl. But I can tell you, my brothers are just my best friends. They're my biggest cheerleaders. And I say still, because even though my oldest brother is no longer here in the flesh, he's still with me in spirit and cheering me on and having my back for sure.
Alan Fleischmann
You know, I've lost beloved members of my family, including immediate family, and I say that it's never the same, obviously, and the physical loss is everything. But that guided hand of love and the wisdom and words stick with you, and especially if you let it, if you open it up for it.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
It does, right? No, I love your point. You know, I say that grief is love with no place to go, but I also say, if I was fortunate enough to have the years that I had, but gone too soon, what I traded away to not have experienced this grief, I would take all of it, knowing that I'm still going to have this grief. I would sign up for it every day because of what it gave me and the love that he had for me and the love that I still have for him. And so I agree, I wouldn't trade it away. But you have this life's new journey. You know, when you have people so close to you leave you. It is a new course on how you operate and how you move, but you got to get back to joy. You have to get back to joy.
Alan Fleischmann
And then spreading the word to your own family and closest friends that joy is something we all should have.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Absolutely.
Alan Fleischmann
One of the lessons I taught my daughters, after almost depriving them of that because I wanted them to have such great empathy, was, you know, that they were so worried about everybody else that they forgot that it was okay to be joyful, because they felt like, "wait a minute, how could I be happy if others are not?" And everyone else's grief. They were little girls, and how they took everyone's grief so seriously, because I kept saying 'that person's life and this person's life,' and "remember how?" And then I realized I was hurting them, because we all should actually embrace that. We all should have joy. And then what are we doing to bring joy to others and work hard, because others don't have that luxury? Be grateful. Be grateful. Be grateful. And that builds the humility muscle, but let's not deny ourselves the joy while we're trying to work for others to have it as well.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
I love that point. I always say "life be lifeing", and none of us can escape that. So 'life will life', at some point. And like you said, even at young ages, our kids can see the world through different lenses and have empathy, but also knowing 'life will life'. And so if we can fully understand that, then it is about, how do we have that mindset to get back to joy? You're going to have those moments of pain and hurt and really high empathy to feel really, really bad, but you have to find that joy in order to continue and to see the goodness around us. Even when things are not as joyful, you can still have joy.
Alan Fleischmann
And know that that's a gift that spreads, just as much as sadness can spread. You can spread it, which is actually the most powerful thing to spread of all. I'm curious—you have such an, I mean, I'm very energy sensitive in life, and I live a lot on data certainly, we all do. We have to.But so much of my life is on intuition. The first second I met you, I felt your energy. You have a very unique, powerful energy. And I'm just curious, and it's hard to talk about yourself, but when you were a young high schooler in Arlington, right? Arlington, Texas. Did you have the same energy you have now? Were you an introvert? Because you seem to me as the most natural extrovert. You know, someone who really does care deeply about others. You're curious about others. You kind of feel that responsibility, that "I represent something therefore I must live up to that responsibility," that energy. I'm just curious if you always had it.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
I would say, looking back, I am an extrovert, but I would say, the older you get, the more you lean into really who you are. But I also believe life gives you these repeatable patterns if you pay attention. Going back to my mom, my mom is an educator, and she taught lower income, lower resourced areas. I would see her in action. I would see her leaving early, coming home late. I would hear the stories that every child can learn. I would see my mom buying a pair of shoes to give to a student, knowing we were struggling, but that's who she was. My mom would always tell us. If I ever came home and said, "Mom," you know, "Alan didn't have food today at lunch," her first question would be, "So you gave him your food, right?" And so that level of kindness, that level of whatever you do, you do it from the heart, that grounding of seeing people, I think I've always had that, because that's how I was raised. I think in high school—I was the student class president, I played varsity basketball as a sophomore. First year in high school, I loved volleyball, but I was also on the care team, I took honors creative writing. So I always had a little bit of this, a little bit of that, which allowed me to really experience this level of curiosity of people; not just the athletes, but the people that were on the care team, understanding, being in a creative writing class. So I think I've always had in me this need to see everyone, and this advocacy to use my platform—however you would define it—for good. I couldn't articulate it in that way, I would say it was because it was just what I did. But I would also say that doesn't mean things were easy. I think in high school, you're still dealing with high school issues and high school things, and when you may be excelling, especially as an athlete, and you are a sophomore, and by the time you're a senior, you know, you don't need to get yelled at as much. But if everyone else didn't experience playing for that same coach for several years, they would think there would be favoritism. I just got yelled at much earlier. And so navigating the dynamics of also just understanding that when you excel at an outsized level, everyone may not understand it, and in fact, the way people may express it may be hurtful, because they just don't really understand it. And so what you don't understand, you create narratives around. I think I am thankful that I experienced some of those moments in high school, because little did I know, it was actually strengthening me to navigate other environments and other scenarios. But, I could go back to the moment of knowing what it's like for people to create a narrative that is counter to your intention, or to not wish you well, or to understand that it's okay to go left when everyone is going right, If that's the beat of your drum—that is okay.High school was a great learning experience. I think I always had this energy, but it doesn't mean that it did not come with its own level of burden or challenges. But I would say going through it and having my parents and my brothers around me, I had this level of "it's going to be okay, and you have to keep going." Plus, my parents wouldn't give me a choice. You have to show up that way anyway. So, you know, you would just keep keep moving.
Alan Fleischmann
I mean, your parents taught you, we can hear it, that you were original, that you are enough, but also responsible. The fact that you were student body president does not surprised me at all, but it takes courage to do that. It takes courage to say, "I will do this. I will run for that." And then your point—and I bet you apply it every day to your CEOship—when you are a disruptor who leads, you're also a target, and people want to bring you down. Whether it's personal or whether it's competitive, or because they just want to, when you're above the line, you live that life. It's funny, but looking back, you probably can see the beginnings of how you were already conditioned for that battle, or those battles way back when, when you were in high school.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
You just nailed it. Sometimes, when you're going through hard—I always say, when you're sitting in hard, it's easy (and I know I did that) to be like, "Why me? I just want to win. Why don't they like me? Like, we're winning, why don't they like...?" you know, all the things. But I'm so grateful that I sat in hard moments at a young age. I'm so grateful that I saw financial insecurity at a young age. I'm so grateful that, I saw hard, because it has given me a level of real empathy. How can I not see the people who prepare our food here or clean our office. That's like not seeing my dad who worked in a warehouse and scanned boxes and drove trucks. How can I not see someone who may not feel included when I know the feeling of not being included. So, I am thankful that I was able to have lots of lessons growing up, because I think, to your point, I was able to draw on that, and I had a higher level of Teflon to get through hard things. And I would also just say, Alan, and you raised this point—you know that everyone is not going to wish you well. You do good anyway. And what I try to do is I think about it as a moat, and the people that are closest to me—my grandmother, who's still alive at 96, my mom, my dad, my brothers, my husband, my children—they are the closest to me, so I am so open and free to them. They could totally make me sad at a moment's notice. But they're also the ones that pray for me. They're also the ones that have my back. I know that they want me to be the best version of Thasunda. Same goes to that level two moat, level three. So my point is, if you have a moat around you, it takes a lot to penetrate, to get to my spirit, to hold me back, because I have so many people, colleagues, people I don't even know, that say "I have your back. Keep going." And that, to me, is what I focus on. Knowing that, of course, there's people that may not mean you well, but you do good anyway, and you just make sure that those closest to you make that truly protective moat, so that it doesn't pierce your spirit and make you give up. You have to keep going anyway. So I'm very grateful for all the people that I surround myself with. That encourages me to keep going even when it's hard, and that gives me accountability when I mess up, but also is fiercely protective of this energy and purpose that I have in life.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, what I love about this, there's so many things you just said that I love. I mean, first and foremost, this idea that we have to be more respectful in our society, that those who have the great fortune of creating fortunes and have done well in capitalism could not have done it without the hard work of all these people who made life quality oriented and made it better. And they work hard, and they're working hard. Therefore, there has to be a system out there that makes it so that they can live with dignity and enjoy their life. Enjoy and then retire in dignity and enjoy their life. And it's absolutely appalling to me we don't have that down. It is such an arrogance and selfishness if we don't think that everyone's success is due to the incredible contributions of so many people who lend their service, their working grit, their dedication and devotion to making a better place. Whether you're in a restaurant, you're in a community, doesn't matter where you are, the people that are working really hard, are working really hard, and deserve to have a journey with that dignity and respect that is so part of you. I've had these conversations with you. I also love this idea of the moat. I love this idea, that you fiercely fight for and to protect, probably, your family and closest loved ones, to make sure that whatever they need, you're there to protect them, but what you just shared is so profound. They're there to protect you and they're your strength so that as you are out there courageously fighting the fight for others, including, the most obvious, to be a provider and partner with those in your family to make sure they're okay, your strength comes from them, because they're there to protect you. They're the ones that'll make you cry faster anybody else and feel hurt, probably easier than anybody else, because they know where your buttons are, and they know where you're vulnerable, and that's also who you're trying to fight for every day. So therefore their words matter. But on the other hand, you also know, as you said, they got you. I love that.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Yeah, I mean, my husband, Richard, who's so wonderful, he understands that providing for my mom and dad and my brothers and my nieces and nephews and my children—that's a given, but that's not sufficient for me. It's not enough for me to only say, "Well, my family is okay, my mom and dad who sacrificed, or my nieces and nephews, or, you know, my children," that's incomplete for me. The reason why I feel as if they give me so much strength is they also understand my purpose. I want to positively impact the world. I want to be able to do what my mom did with one child and figure out, how can I make a positive difference for many, many more people? And so that protection that they give me is also the permission to say we know that for much is given, much is required. "We know mommy that you may not be home every day for dinner."
Alan Fleischmann
Which must have broken her heart.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Exactly. But they they also just say, "We get it. We get it when we see people. We see what you are wanting to do. We see how you love what you do." So to me, the people who I love and would give all this up for are actually the people that are encouraging me to continue to try to make positive impact and to not dim my light, and to continue to deliver for this amazing company, but also for what the company represents and what we're here to do to make sure more people can have a secure retirement and to make sure that I can use my platform in a way that continue to grow inclusive capitalism and address real issues that I am proximate to every day when I think about my upbringing.
Alan Fleischmann
I want to get into all that stuff, because I know we're going to run out of time before we get to all that, and I want to make sure we do. But I am struck by your high school experience because you also went back. The fact that you don't forget. You have this way where you understand the sacrifice, you understand the teachers, you understand all the people that influence your life, and you went back with your family foundation, and you didn't forget Sam Houston High School. You didn't forget, the Arlington Independent School District. You wanted to be there to say thank you, to show gratitude, to show "I wouldn't be where I am if it weren't for you." And the way you talked about your brothers, and obviously your mom and dad and your grandmother, it sounds like that's such a big part of who you are. You know where you come from and you know where you're going.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Well it's just like in leadership, right? In order to solve problems, you start with the root cause. And when you understand the root cause, you can be more thoughtful about how to make the right effective impact. And I think for me, to never forget the source, and to not start with where I received my degrees, or where I started my career—phenomenal companies, phenomenal institutions. But that's not where my story started. It started with a lot of people who fought for opportunities for me to exist. It starts with my family. It starts with my upbringing on the east side of Arlington. But what I really think is the connection is understanding those are the things that really mattered. And so when I think about the foundation in my parents' honor, the Otis and Rosie Brown Foundation, it's about ordinary people doing extraordinary things and connecting that we are all ordinary people, but we have the capacity to be extraordinary. It was my parents pouring on me that gave me this confidence. It was the way my dad would cut young boys' hair and stand in the gap if they didn't have dads. It was the way my mother would tell the kids in Texas—when it was no pass, no play, and we came from sports—and a kid was failing, my mother would tell him, "You are smart, you can learn." And she would tutor him. And when he's 40 years old, he's saying thank you to my mom, because "you told me I was smart." And so it's that connection, that really is the unlock. It's the teacher that said a kind word. It's Mr. And Mrs. Patterson that told me about INROADS. I never even heard the word corporate America, but they told me about this program called INROADS, which was founded by a white man, Frank C. Carr, in the 70s, that wanted to make sure that people of diverse backgrounds could have exposure into corporate America. I thank him for starting an organization that ultimately had Mr. and Mrs. Patterson give me the information that actually changed my entire life. It was Valerie Manning who, when I interned at Fannie Mae and there was only one spot, for whatever reason, Valerie Manning went back to Fannie Mae and said, "I found our intern. Her name is Sarah." But Valerie Manning said, "but there's this other girl..." So I am deeply connected to these moments. And, I think creating a foundation to celebrate extraordinary people, who are truly ordinary but can do extraordinary things, it's a nod that we all have the ability to be extraordinary. Because extraordinary is kindness. Extraordinary is sharing information. All of those are the things that truly change the course of one's life, and I'm deeply connected to it and want to make sure I can do my part to just spread more of that in the work that I do and in the philanthropic efforts that I support. Including creating the Otis and Rosie Brown Foundation that gives scholarships based on character. And we see small, not-for-profits, that are doing extraordinary things with ordinary resources.
Alan Fleischmann
Love that, I love the fact that you brought up Frank Carr, also, and that somehow his work with INROADS through the Pattersons, became an opportunity for you. Because he was inspired by Dr. King. He saw Dr. King speak, I think it was the story, the I Have a Dream speech. And he actually said, I have to do something. I have to do something for those who should have the dream and need to be part of the dream. I love that. I love that you remember all the people that have been on that journey with you. Is that why you went into business? Did you know from that experience, once that was enlightened and opened up to you, that that was an opportunity? Is that why when you went to university, you said, "I will focus on finance and marketing?"
Thasunda Brown Duckett
No, because I didn't hear about INROADS until I was already in school, but I didn't know what I wanted to be. I think I just figured if I majored in business, that would give me the most flexibility. Then I was a finance and marketing major, so I double majored because I felt that having both degrees would show both sides. I'm very much an operator on the left and right. But yet, I have vision. I want to create. I mean, I didn't have that language in college, this is all in retrospect. But I didn't know. My mom was a teacher, and my dad, like I said, was working in a warehouse, but they had big dreams, and I think majoring in business just said I didn't have to declare what I wanted to do, because wherever I worked, it's a business, and if I understood business, I would have a lot of marketability. Mr. and Mrs. Patterson, exposing me to INROADS, and Valerie Manning choosing to say "there's this other girl," is how I entered into corporate America. It's how I started at Fannie Mae. It's how I started to learn, the mission is our business and the business is our mission, which was really the mantra at the time. And so again, I never heard the word corporate America. I did not know anything about the secondary market. But there's moments of disruption, I think, in everyone's life. And if you listen to it, and if you seize it, you never know what that outcome can lead to. The power of information and the power of advocacy were my disruptors, and those two things changed the course to help me find something that I'm passionate about. I love business, and it was that story that led me ultimately to being able to experience it in corporate America.
Alan Fleischmann
And you've been consistent that you've loved business, but you've also understood the power that private industry, in partnership with civil society, in partnership with public sector, can actually have enormous impact. I mean, when you were at Fannie Mae, you were very, very big on increasing home ownership, certainly among marginalized communities, Black and Brown communities in particular. But you saw that your efforts and your leadership can result in not a transaction, but literally transforming people's lives.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Oh, absolutely. That's all the power of public-private partnership. Starting a career at Fannie Mae, especially working in affordable housing, in particular, seeing cities have down payment assistance programs, seeing not-for-profits administer those programs, seeing banks finance the program, seeing the secondary market in terms of Fannie Mae making sure that you could do this at scale. I remember in Oklahoma meeting with members of the Native American community, learning about fee simple and trust land. And so to me, my lens comes through the power of the individual, the power of government, and the power of company. When all of those things are working along with philanthropy as well, when all of that is working together, powerful things can happen. It's all of us making sure that we do our part. And I think I was able to see that at a very young age, including in college, being a student regent and advocating for college students. You see the importance of government at every level, and you see the importance of companies. And I think it's creating space to hold us all accountable, but to also know that when it's all working well, it's because we're all working together. And that, to me, I think, is the power of democracy and capitalism, and ultimately a path to inclusive capitalism to make sure that we're addressing issues that's excluding those from not being able to have access and to achieve it.
Alan Fleischmann
What's so powerfully important is the intentionality. Because if you don't have the intention to drive that integration of civil society, public sector, private sector, that's looking to actually bring opportunity at scale to those who would not normally have it, it won't happen. It doesn't happen unless you lean in, it doesn't happen unless you make it explicit. It just doesn't happen. And when people say, "Oh, we don't need these programs. We don't need this and that because we don't need it'. it's just unnecessary, everybody's equal." Well, that's not true. People don't come onto the Earth or come into life on equal footing. Therefore we have to do, what we can do, to make it inclusive.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
That's why—I love your point. I think that's why, it's also so important to understand history and progress. When I think about an inclusive society and making sure that all Americans have access to grow GDP, all Americans have the ability to contribute. I think about the role of government in the 90s when the ADA was passed, the American Disabilities Act, to make sure that people with different abilities could still be able to have a ramp to enter into the building, or could still be able to have accommodation so that they can bring their talent into the walls of corporate America. When I think about parental leave, where it started in the states, in California, but then it became policy at the federal level. All of this progress was because there was an issue that was excluding populations for being able to excel and contribute to society. And so when we hold ourselves accountable and say, "hey, there is a group that does not have access in the same way as someone else to be able to bring their best talent, to be able to create new companies, to be able to solve complex problems. How do we solve it?" And sometimes it may start from an individual that's advocating and fighting and pushing, but ultimately, policies matter. When I think about the policies that created inclusive opportunity—that is the biggest down payment to growing GDP in our country. That is the biggest down payment to creating innovation and creativity and finding the person in rural America that may not have had everything, but someone or a program came in, and now that person has graduated from college and started a small business. That, to me, is what this is all about. And I just think it's so important for us to understand the power of private-public partnership. And when the programs are going, are they working? Can they be improved? Can you scale it? Have you brought it into a system where maybe you no longer need it? It's that mindset, because the outcome is talent. The outcome is unlocking the potential of everyone, regardless of their race, their gender, or their zip code, and making sure that when we do that, what I know for sure about this country, it's only continued to be better for it over time.
Alan Fleischmann
That's so powerful, because, it's like the idea of inertia. You know, we need air, but you can't see it. Gravity exists, but we don't see it, but we can feel it. And unfortunately, in order to get things over a mountain, over a hill, it means we all have to collectively come together and push, and it needs that effort. It's not asking for people to have something that others don't have. Your words are very strong. "Inclusive." It means inclusive. It doesn't mean exclusive. It's not saying you or someone else. It means that, why not you? You are enough, and that's what we're going after. Because you can't be an entrepreneur if you can't even take care of your family, and you can't take the risk. There's nothing out there that can actually alleviate the major cycles of pressures that life brings to you. You can be an entrepreneur if there's some partnership out there that can allow you to have access to capital, possibly access to mentors, certainly access to support in order to mitigate the risk and maximize the opportunity. And we need entrepreneurship in order for those small businesses to fuel that GDP that you mentioned. You've been doing it at JPMorgan Chase. You were CEO of Chase Auto Financial. Then you became CEO of Chase Consumer Banking. When I think about from Fannie Mae through the whole Chase trajectory of many CEOships—in 2021 you became the CEO of TIAA. I know your predecessors, we've had Roger Ferguson on this show. You have been a generational and transformational figure. And I would argue you came in in the last several years of having to lead at a time when people are pushing back on the very things that, frankly, built TIAA. In other words, the very fabric of the purpose and and the everyday fight that you're fighting has never been more important, I would argue. And certainly the challenge never been more significant. So it's kind of like the student body president who got in there, but didn't necessarily make yourself a target or appreciate the fact that not everybody sees it the way you are. You got it then, you got it now. I'm just curious—you must feel that as challenging and almost, I would say even at times, probably depressing, that you're having to fight the fight you fight every day. Why doesn't everybody see the light? It must also be very invigorating, because you're surrounded by people every day who work with you and who are willing to get up and fight that fight with you as well.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Having the privilege to become the CEO of TIAA is a full circle moment. I've only worked in financial services, from mortgages, which is home ownership, cars, banking, wealth, and now insurance and asset management. What's so full circle is I remember when I graduated from college and I was talking to Otis Brown, my dad, and somehow we got on retirement. This is a true story, Alan. And I happened to look at his statement. At the time, my dad worked for his company for over 30 years, and he had a pension, but he also had access to our 401k plan, and he did not contribute one dollar. Not one dollar. And this is a man who was raising his children all the stories that I shared prior, but for whatever reason, it didn't reach the man that scanned boxes. It didn't reach the man that was driving trucks. And so to have an opportunity to become the CEO of Tia, where my mother is a retired educator. My dad is a blue collar worker that never contributed to his 401k. It's personal for me, and when I think about a company that's been around for one hundred years, founded by Andrew Carnegie, who saw the some of the brightest, most wonderful educators—educating the some of the best minds—were retiring in poverty and not dignity. That's the basis of this company. And so when I think about good times and bad I remind everyone we've seen it all. We've been around for over one hundred years. But what has never wavered was this mission to do everything that we can to ensure that people can have money that they won't outlive, so that people can have a dignified retirement. And so the good news about this, Alan, which is so great, is I'm surrounded by associates who are aligned in this mission and wear that jersey proudly every day. But when we are talking to policy makers who are so important, this is a bipartisan issue. This is something that, regardless of the administration, we have found alignment. Because no matter who you are, no matter where you live, no matter how much you have, we all understand what it means to know someone or have experienced it yourself, not having everything that you need in retirement, and we believe that if you worked, you should have dignity in retirement. I am privileged to be a part of a company that has this amazing legacy and this amazing mission, but it's a story that resonates with everyone. I can say that it has been bipartisan support that has improved policy to make it easier for companies to be able to provide lifetime income, and it's the work that will continue working with policymakers and other companies to talk about the fact that over 40% of Americans run the risk of running out of money in retirement. We know there's a $4 trillion savings gap. We know that every day, 12,000 people are hitting retirement age. So this is a real, real issue that impacts all of us. And we also know we're living in a time where you have more generations alive than ever before. We have to do our part so that we are transferring wealth to our next generation, and not debt and burden because of the tax to take care of all of us as we get older. I'm passionate about it. I'm privileged to lead this company, and I remind people that being around for over one hundred years, we've seen the good, the bad, and everything in between, but our mission has never wavered, and it takes all of us. I'm privileged to have a topic that matters to everyone, that we can rally behind and do more to help more people have a dignified retirement.
Alan Fleischmann
What I love also is that you have trillions of dollars under AUM that you're managing, and your team, you could just focus on those you serve and make that be your sole responsibility. "Let's focus on them, and we're good." But you have not. You actually understand that, with that responsibility of literally trillions, and the magnitude and the size in which you matter, that there are so many who don't have it. They just don't have it, and they're not going to have it, and I think I read it several times over that it's if not the greatest fear that people have, it's among the greatest fears, that they won't have any ability to retire, and that they're going to run out of money, or especially that they'll have no savings at all. So how are they going to turn the lights off and move into the next room in life? They can't, because there's no resources. You've taken that on, you and your team, to say it's not just about my company, it's about what we represent and the broader issue of urgent concern at every level. It's what's making our political system not consistent. Everybody wants urgent change to solve the problem of capitalism, because it's not inclusive, and you express it in every way, shape or form so you can see that urgency of change. Your leadership has always been—since you've taken this on, and I can see it in your life before that—this urgency of change. We have to take this on. We have to create the constituencies of concern and turn that into action so that there is dignity. I love the word dignity, the idea of dignifying retirement.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
I's so important. When I think about what I get to wake up and do every day, for me personally, I get to think about Otis and Rosie Brown. Every day, I get to think about millions of Americans that are working, and while they're working, how do we make sure that we as employers are doing everything that we can to make sure that the benefits that we are curating can drive the outcomes for them? How do we as leaders do everything that we can to recognize that over 56 million Americans do not have access to a workplace retirement plan? How do we work to understand what we can do together to make it easier for small businesses to be able to provide retirement solutions or access to the vehicle because of what that can mean for them? How do we engage young people to understand the power of compounding, so that if the one thing that they do—which I tell young people all the time, when you get that first job, before you get your first check, max out on your retirement. I was making $26,000, but on Friday, I was making no money. Monday, I started my new job, so I maxed out, because whatever pay I was going to receive two weeks from now was more money than I ever made before, and just that one decision allowed me to, one, not leave any money on the table, to maximize my package. But over time, the power of compounding happened, and I didn't miss it because I made that first decision. And so I tell young people the power of compounding (unless you just want to leave that money on the table), as well as the importance of what that can mean. Long term, it's a lot easier to work two or three jobs when you're younger than two or three and four jobs when you're much older. The decisions that we make when we're younger will allow us to have different options when we get older, including being able to transfer more to our family or back to society, because we've made those decisions at a much earlier age. So that is something that we get to talk about all the time at TIAA, and just play to our strengths, doing what we've done in higher ed and in healthcare, and continuing to focus in that not-for-profit sector, because there's still so much work to be done there. And also bring those capabilities to the broader market, which I just think is a nod to the spirit of Andrew Carnegie and wanting to make sure that people had a dignified retirement.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm obsessed with Andrew Carnegie, and I've read so many books about him, and I've studied him. But what an incredible, inclusive capitalist role mode he was. But it wasn't until studying you that I learned that he was actually the founder of TIAA, I did not know.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Oh, wow.
Alan Fleischmann
I only found that out recently, and I was stunned. I've even gone to when the medal's given out, and I've been at receptions, and I'm on the board at Carnegie Hall, there's so many things that I've been involved in and centers that have all been named after him and created. But I never knew this connection, and I love that. That's one of his great legacies, that he saw the power and the importance of creating something that, in essence, is inclusive. You're on the boards of some pretty amazing places. You're continuing to serve. I know you're on the board of Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights, which I've been involved in, RFK Human Rights. And you're harnessing power. That's another thing I love, is that you're not afraid to know that with responsibility comes power. It's what you do with that power that matters. But you have power. We all have power. So what are we doing with the power we've got? You're on the board of the Economic Club in New York, the most important, probably, hospital in New York, New York Presbyterian is enormous, the University of Houston Board of Visitors, the Dean's Advisory Board for your graduate school, Baylor, the School of Business, Nike. But you also have this great line, which I've heard, you say, "Rent your title, but own your character." And that goes right back to Otis and Rosie Brown, and that's where you created the foundation and I love that you didn't name the foundation after you, or you and your husband. You named the foundation after your mom and your dad. And that's very humbling, very powerful, but it goes back to the word you used earlier in reference to them: character.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
I always say, I rent my title, I own my character. And the reason is it's this understanding that at some point, you will not always have that rented title. I used to play basketball—I don't play, I'm not a starting guard anymore. I am not the CEO of the Consumer Bank at JPMorgan Chase anymore. I'm currently the CEO of TIAA, but there will be a time where your rented titles will be left with the institution or with the high school or with the college. But what I know for sure that I own is my character, and so having that understanding, I think, means that I can see everyone. I can see value. I saw value in Otis Brown. I see value in the people that clean the grounds every day, and they can inspire me. You can get mentored not by rented titles, but by how people are showing up in the world. My executive assistant, the way in which she partners with me to allow me to be the best version of myself, that's inspiring. I'm not caught up on rented titles. It's the character of the person. And I think knowing that if you are so tied up on your rented title—I'd always say, as an athlete, what happens if you blow out your knee? You no longer know who you are? What happens when you lose your job? Your identity was wrapped up in something that you don't own. And so I just try to wrap my identity up in my ownable assets. I love the ability to be on boards. I love the ability to be a philanthropist. I love the ability to lead this amazing company. But I also know that there's a time where that may not always be, but I will always be Thasunda Brown Duckett. Someone who really has these ownable assets that I believe can continue to do good, even when that particular title may leave me. I can still make impact, because it's my ownable assets. And I just really encourage everyone—you rent your title, you own your character, so it doesn't matter what your position is. You have a voice. You have agency. I want to hear from you. I want to understand what your thoughts are. I think when you do that, you create space. I think you see everyone and honestly, you know, I become a better human for it.
Alan Fleischmann
It also allows your power to be much bigger than your day job or your affiliations. It's about you. So when you make that call, those calls will be returned because it's about Thasunda. It's about, whoever's listening who says, "Wait a minute, it's about my character," because it's your character that ultimately creates the respect. And the idea of I want to lean in, I want to learn, and I want to understand what you want and what you need to be a partner. I think that's such a powerful, powerful message. I'm curious, you know, we are living through challenging times. I would argue, in my lifetime—professionally and personally, I've never felt more challenged. Looking ahead, I'm curious to hear more about—and we only have a few minutes left, I know—but your vision for your company, for TIAA, over the coming years. And then broader, what is your dream for all of us to be on the journey with you and TIAA?
Thasunda Brown Duckett
One thing I do want to say before that, when you were talking about renting title and character, I also know when you have a rented title, sometimes that is why you are getting the call back. And so knowing that there are reasons why people will engage because of your rented title—and that is okay, by the way. When I move on, some of those calls may no longer be answered because I'm no longer with that title. So giving myself that truth serum also is beautiful. It gives you the humility to go, "I understand that when I move on, there will be people that will stay with that title, and that is okay." But I also know that if I show up as Thasunda in my ownable asset, to your point, there will be people through life that will always pick up the phone because I showed up as Thasunda. I think it's important to recognize there is power in that rented title. And there are things where people will take your call, people may tell you you're amazing, and then the minute you're no longer having that role or position, all of that stays with the title. So I just wanted to share that complete perspective of how I think about it. But in terms of my my vision for TIAA, it's to help people have a more dignified retirement. It's the mission. When I think about what I see for the company, I see us never wavering as everything is changing, but embracing the change and modernizing the company in order to continue to do the work. Embracing AI. Knowing that that can be an accelerator for our people. It could be an accelerator for how we deliver value. Embracing technology. It's growing globally with our asset management with Nuveen. It's providing advice, because so many people need advice. It's working with institutions to really make sure within your retirement plan, you have bonds and equity, but also insurance, so that you can have that lifetime income—the closest thing to a DB. My vision is the company's vision of what's been around before I even had the seat. I think the opportunity for me and the leaders that I surround myself with is to make sure that we operate in pursuit of our mission in a way that has the forward looking lens, in a way that continues to pour into our culture, that continues to inspire our people. To make sure that we're skilling our people as we continue to evolve, to make sure that we're stewards of our general account and what we're doing with respect to how we invest. But the good news is, my mission is the same vision and mission of what has been through the founding of this company. It's just having the strategy, the vision, and the operational passion and focus to execute, to make sure that in any environment, we stay in pursuit of that and we have the agility to navigate through good times, bad times, et cetera, and never compromising our values and how we go about it. So that's an easy one that I want everyone to rally around. Because ultimately, it's not just self-serving for who we are, it's serving the broader good and solving a really hard problem in terms of the time that we're in. I like to say, Alan, to people, that you know, yes, this is a hard time. There's so much change. There's so much going on. There's wars, there's a lot of polarization, there's a lot of I versus you and me versus them. But I also remind people that I would not want to go back to any other time than today. The future is always greater, and that's what I hold on to, because history has told me so. I don't want to go back to the 1800s, the 1950s, 1960s—it was not better for all of us. We had work to do. What makes our country, to me, special, is the ideals of a more perfect union. It is not perfect, but over time, we have made progress all the same, and it has not been a straight line, but it requires us to always be in active pursuit of what we want this country and this world to be. I think it's important that while we are sitting in hard—which hard will always exist—how do we make sure that as leaders, as individuals, as humans, that we decide: do we want to pour into it in a way that can have a positive outcome? Do you just want to sit and watch and it doesn't matter what happens? Or do you resist it and we go backwards? I have optimism. I have optimism, with understanding that it's hard, with understanding that there's still inequities in this world, with understanding that there are times where it feels like dividing us is the right answer, not us recognizing that it's an end. And whenever we operate with an end, things grow. Companies are formed. But I also know that if I want this world to be better, with every last breath, I have a choice. Am I depositing into it for it to grow and be a better place in the way I want to envision it, and the way I want my children to have opportunities and others people's children to have opportunities? Or do I just complain and operate as if our best days are behind us? Absolutely not. The best days are in front of us, because we get to decide. We get to shape those best days with everything in our toolkit and the benefit of history and the innovation and the brilliance of our youth and the perspective of those that are much older, like my 96 year old grandmother. How can we not still find optimism, even when it's hard, even when we're sitting in pain, even when we're going through hard moments? My dad would always say, "You can have bad moments, but no bad days." I just think the alternative is not as interesting for me, and it's definitely not as exciting, and it's definitely not doing everything that I can to continue to move. Move what I have in front of me, move the country, move the world in my way, and contribute and hopefully encourage everyone else to deposit in a way that can continue to move this country and this world forward. And over time, that is what has happened.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there a specific thing that you would say to this listening audience? "Join me this way or that way," or that you could sign up for something and be part of this mission?
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Absolutely. I would say as leaders, because I know that's a big piece of your base, I would encourage every leader to join us in this Retirement Bill of Rights. I would encourage every one of us to look at our benefit plans and to ask simple questions. Is everyone participating in our retirement benefit? Is everyone contributing to the max? And if not, slice the data: is it those that you know are furthest removed from leaders that are not contributing? And if they're not contributing, what can we do? How do we design the plan to make it easier for people to automatically enroll them into our benefit plan? If that happened to my dad, it could have been a different outcome for the course of his value and his contribution. Do we escalate every year? Because maybe someone signed up and they could only contribute a small amount. One percent escalation to the max, giving the employee the benefit to say, "No, life is lifeing," or "I have a hardship, I need to take it down," but the next year enroll them back. Are we making sure that we are taking the time to educate? Our employees, they spend so much time at work, it's a phenomenal opportunity for managers to just educate them on our benefits that we all have. I think it's looking at your benefit plan, saying, "Is it working for all of your employees as designed? And if not, what can we do better?" Ease is really the unlock. And then join—when we think about policy, it's a bipartisan issue. How do we work together to make sure that more workplace plans can have access to these benefits, and also that we can continue to work with our policymakers to make it easier for people to have a dignified retirement? My call to action for leaders is simply: is everyone participating, especially those farthest removed, in a way that could help them over the course of time working at your company and maybe many others? Are they able to fulfill that promise of, they worked and they contributed? Can they have a dignified retirement on the other side? And are we doing everything that we can to make that come true?
Alan Fleischmann
I love that, and I hope everyone takes that to heart. I also would suggest in all the free time that you don't have, that it would be amazing for you, either to write up and post, or write up and write a book, but to take the wisdom of Otis and Rosie Brown and share it with the world. And also add your own. Because the way you explain the simple truths, it actually is so inspiring. And I think, like water in a desert, I think people are desperately needing to hear it and to feel it and understand it and to be inspired by it. So maybe if you're ever on down time, or there's ever a moment where you're taking long walks, it would be great for you to share with the world some of that wisdom of Otis and Rosie Brown and your own. Because I think we need it more than ever. And then join forces with this Bill of Rights as well. I'd love to have you back on the show. It was not easy to get you on this time, but I'd love to spend an hour with you next time where we can unpack inclusive capitalism and really talk through why it's so incredibly important. Why it's urgent, what it really means, and what people can do to redefine their purpose in life in order to accelerate what absolutely has to happen if we're going to have a thriving community, a thriving democracy, and a thriving civil society as well. Because I think there's nobody who can explain it and inspire itbetter than you.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Absolutely. And thank you for the opportunity to join your podcast and to talk about my early upbringing and to talk about this phenomenal privilege that I have to be the CEO of TIAA, and the responsibility that we all have as a collective to help people have a more secure retirement. And to make sure that we're transferring not debt, but we're transferring the ability to say, "Mom and Dad—it's good. I'm okay. You can live your life and travel. I'm going to be okay." And I think we have work to do, but it's that work that inspires me every single day. So thank you so very much.
Alan Fleischmann
That's inspired me. You've been listening to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. We spent the last hour with truly one of the greatest leaders in our country and globally, and she's certainly one of the great leaders in private, public and civil society: Thasunda Brown Duckett, the President and CEO of TIAA. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show and talking about influences to understand the power of words and action, and to learn the lessons of life and career from you. And I look forward to our next already. Thank you.
Thasunda Brown Duckett
Thank you so much.