Margot Machol Bisnow
Entrepreneur, Author, and Public Servant
It’s okay to fail, because that’s how you’re going to learn, that’s how you’re going to grow, and that’s how you’re going to get better.
Summary
On this episode of “Leadership Matters,” Margot Machol Bisnow joins Alan to discuss her career, her family, and the role both played in producing the insights in her latest book.
Titled Raising an Entrepreneur: How to Help Your Children Achieve Their Dreams, the book grew out of Margot’s experiences speaking to young entrepreneurs at Summit events — a conference series whose co-founders include her son, Elliott. In the book, Margot interviews a host of entrepreneurs and their parents, exploring the key philosophies and choices that helped them grow into the innovators and creators they have become. Though her interviewees come from a wide variety of backgrounds, Margot observed a set of parenting practices that extend across many of her subjects — chief among them, a willingness to allow their children to pursue their passions, regardless of any outward markers of success. In their conversation, Margot and Alan discuss the keys to fostering entrepreneurialism, her own journey as an entrepreneur, why it’s so important that we take an expansive view of what constitutes an entrepreneur.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Guest Bio
Margot Machol Bisnow is a writer, wife, and mom from Washington, DC. She has a BA in English and an MBA, both from Northwestern, and spent 20 years in government, including as an FTC Commissioner and in the White House as staff director of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers.
Margot and her husband Mark have two kids. Austin has written successful pop songs and started a popular LA-based band, Magic Giant. Elliott founded Summit, a noted international conference series for Millennial entrepreneurs, and led the purchase and development of the Powder Mountain ski resort in Utah as a permanent home for the Summit community.
In book talks around the country, Margot has been joined by entrepreneurs and parents featured in the book. They discuss how to raise children who are confident, creative, resilient, and happy.
Clips from this Episode
Margot shares lessons from her new book Raising an Entrepreneur
Margot gives her advice to parents on how to raise a successful entrepreneur
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
My guest today is an extraordinary author, public servant, and entrepreneur who has captured powerful insights for parents seeking to raise their children to become entrepreneurs.
Margot Machol Bisnow is a former government official who spent more than two decades working in Washington. More recently, she’s the author of a book titled Raising an Entrepreneur: How to Help Your Children Achieve Their Dreams. The mother of two entrepreneurs herself, Raising an Entrepreneur explores the values and philosophies of the parents of some of the country’s most remarkable entrepreneurs. Margaret boils down the many insights in her book to 10 rules for parents hoping to raise entrepreneurs, detailing the keys to raising children who are confident, creative, resilient, and of course, happy.
In addition to her experiences as a parent, Margot’s book also draws upon her professional experience. Her time in government includes stints at the Federal Trade Commission — as a commissioner, actually — and as staff director of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers, I’m thrilled to have her on our show today to discuss her career, her extraordinary book, and to get some of her incredible insights, ideas, and really understand the key elements of entrepreneurship through the eyes of an entrepreneur — who’s also a pretty darn good mom.
Margot, welcome to “Leadership Matters.” It is so much fun to have you on today.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Thanks, Alan. it’s so good to be with you. Yeah,
Alan Fleischmann
It’s really gonna be fun, we’re gonna have a great conversation.
I want to get an idea of who you really are. I think of you now as someone who’s created this incredible ecosystem of other parents, but you’re also a person that parents — of young kids, adult kids, you name it — have started to look to, as someone who could give them both insight and inspiration.
I thought I’d start, though, with a little bit about your journey and your childhood. Your father was a former FAA official and a professor at the Kellogg School of Management. What was your mom doing when you were growing up? Tell us a little bit about your mom, I have a feeling your mom had to be a great role model here. And also, what was life like around the house with both your parents and siblings?
Margot Machol Bisnow
I have one brother. My mom didn’t go to college before she met my dad, and was going to school while we were growing up, for a lot of years until she graduated. I grew up in university towns, and she kind of had this feeling that you had to have a degree. And of course, when she got the degree, she realized it didn’t matter.
It’s really interesting to me, being the child of a professor. I just thought everybody graduated from college; it never occurred to me that somebody wouldn’t graduate from college. And then, my oldest son dropped out after two and a half years. It was shocking to me, and I was slightly horrified. Of course, looking back, I think it was the best thing he ever did.
Alan Fleischmann
I guess, the example of your mom probably gave you a little bit of a break? Or did your mom’s determination to get a degree made that a more frightening moment for you, as a mom?
Margot Machol Bisnow
Honestly, it just never occurred to me that I could have a kid who didn’t graduate from college. Looking back now I realized that… I mean, we can get into what Elliott has done later. But a year and a half after he dropped out, a month short of when he would have graduated, he invited 18 young entrepreneurs for a ski weekend in Utah. That turned into Summit. If he’d stayed in school another year and a half, and then started working, and then started thinking about it, someone else would have done it when he did it. It turned out, he was the first person to do anything like this — to bring young entrepreneurs under the age of 30 together. And if he’d waited in schools, not studying classes he wasn’t interested in, the moment would have passed him by.
I just think it’s kind of an important lesson for parents: just because you think something is important, just because it worked for you growing up, just because that’s what you were always taught and that’s what you always believed, that doesn’t mean it’s still true today.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s true, although they’re not everybody’s going to be an Elliott, so I guess there’s a little bit of parent parental concern that you might not be one of the fortunate ones. We’ll get into that a little bit.
When you hear the word entrepreneurship — and I lived it, you’ve lived it — there’s risk. People don’t always understand that. I always tell people who come to me for advice and ask, “Should I start on my own?” that there are entrepreneurial people who make up that 10%, who should always be in an entrepreneurial environment.
I always say this jokingly, I’m sure I’m exaggerating, but I would say 99% of people shouldn’t do it and 1% should. Because it’s different to be entrepreneurial and to work with an entrepreneur, I think we don’t give enough credit to those who work with entrepreneurs, who are entrepreneurial. It has to be an obsession, almost. And if you see an obsession with your kid, I guess, you gotta let him do it. That was your point — let them do what they want.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Yeah, I agree completely. Not everyone wants to be an entrepreneur, not everyone can live with that kind of risk. I was giving a talk at Summit several years ago about raising kids, and a distraught dad came up to me afterwards. He said his son had started this little company in his dorm room, which he thought was stupid, and his son just announced that he was going to drop out of college and move home. His father was so upset that he hadn’t spoken to him in three weeks.
I called over this guy, Craig Clemens, who I knew had not graduated from college and had made a small fortune. I said, “Craig, let me let me give you an example of two kids and I want to ask you which one you want to hire for your company. The first one started this little widget company, worked on it for a couple of years, ultimately decided it wasn’t going to be successful, and now he really wants to get into a real company and see how they work. The other one stayed in school wasn’t inspired by anything, wasn’t a great student, but he graduated. Which one do you want to hire?” And Craig said, without batting an eye, “I want to hire the first one.” So did the other 150 people in this room. So you know, it just depends on the kid.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s right, 100%. So your work, and the choices you made as an individual — and certainly, as a parent — have had some pretty meaningful consequences, you created some pretty amazing things. I’m just curious, before we leave your childhood: were there any values or decisions that your parents made that helped shape you into the person you are today? The answer is going to have to be yes — good decisions they made and bad ones — but I’m just curious. Are there that came to mind when you were writing your book and thinking about the role of a parent in raising an entrepreneur?
Margot Machol Bisnow
I mean, my parents were wonderful people. They were kind, they were moral, they were honorable. They supported every kind of person and believed that everyone was valuable by what they brought to the table, not what they looked like, or their race, religion, or anything. They believed in a strong work ethic, and they believed in doing your best. So, yeah. I’m pretty happy they were my parents.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s a good thing, that’s a good thing.
Well, you went on to get your degree at Northwestern, you studied English. Did you have any focus there that you were driving toward? What was it that drew you to get that degree?
Margot Machol Bisnow
I’ve just always liked reading and writing; was always good at it; and was kind of aimless and had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up. I remember going in to see my advisor and saying, “I’m wondering if I should take some journalism classes,” because I’m wondering, how should I prepare myself? He kind of looked at me scornfully and said, “Well, did you come to school for knowledge or just for career preparation?” I went, “Oh, sorry, sorry. For knowledge.” But of course…
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. Prepping for the rest of the life is a good thing to go to college for too.
So, you went from there, to an anti-poverty program that you worked at for several years. Then you went got your MBA. Tell us a little about both.
I’m curious, also: did you ever take a class from your father?
Margot Machol Bisnow
No, god no. He was operations, research, and systems analysis. I never knew anything he was ever talking about. Different worlds.
So, I was working in the poverty program with these small, community-action agencies in rural Indiana and Minnesota. I lived in Chicago. And they were so badly managed and so poorly run. I just kept thinking, “Gosh, I wish I knew more about how to help them, I should go back,” because I knew nothing about anything business-oriented. That’s why I went back.
Alan Fleischmann
Before that, when you worked for the anti-poverty program, which program was it?
Margot Machol Bisnow
It was the Office of Economic Opportunity, the OEO. That’s where I worked with these little anti-poverty organizations in these rural agencies that I decided I wanted to know how to help better. I didn’t have the skills.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s great. You then came to Washington — was that right after the MBA, or pretty soon after?
Margot Machol Bisnow
It was immediately after. I didn’t really know exactly what I wanted to do. I remember they said, “Look at your skills and see where you think you might go.” I decided I would be a good brand manager, so I interviewed at a company in New York, they flew me to New York. I said, “Gosh, this is so cool. What brand would I be working with if I get this job?” And they said, “Hamburger Helper.” And I thought, “oh god.” Seriously, I can’t spend my life like getting people to eat Hamburger Helper.
Then an old boyfriend was moving to Washington, I thought, well, maybe I’ll move there for a year and see what happens. One thing led to the next, and now it’s 40 years.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow, that’s amazing.
You ended up being a FTC commissioner, and you were chief of staff to the Council of Economic Advisors. Anything there on that journey — I mean, I’m sure the answer is yes — that actually led you, professionally and personally, to think differently about raising your kids?
Margot Machol Bisnow
No, I don’t think so. I mean, I loved what I did, I’m glad that I that I did the things that I did. They were they were fun and interesting. I don’t know that I got lessons from my jobs about kid-raising.
The one lesson I guess I would say that I got is, I’m really glad that I had a job while my kids were growing up. There’s not a right or wrong answer for everybody; everybody has to make the decision that works for them. But I always tell women they have three choices if they have kids: They can work full time and feel guilty, they can not work and feel guilty, and they can work part-time and feel guilty. So, those are your choices. I’m glad I had something else going on in my life, and I think it was good for the kids to see me as an active and involved person. And I think it was good for them that they had to rely on somebody other than me for some things. It just worked out in our family.
The other thing that I’m really happy about is that we decided that we were going to always hire people who only spoke Spanish to them, so they grew up bilingual. Everyone at the time told me I was nuts, and I’m very, really glad I did that.
Alan Fleischmann
We’ve done that too, actually, with our daughters. They both are fluent in Spanish, and I think that it’s so helpful. We’re living in a bilingual country and people don’t realize it. I think that’s great.
And your husband, Mark, was also doing entrepreneurial things?
Margot Machol Bisnow
Well, we didn’t think of ourselves as doing entrepreneurial things. He was a lawyer, then he worked for the airline business, and then he worked for some tech startups. And I spent, by the way, 10 years setting up economic think tanks in Eastern Europe after the fall of communism in the ‘90s. But neither of us really thought of entrepreneurship as a career, really until our oldest son was in college.
Alan Fleischmann
Oh, interesting. How did that happen, actually? Was it Elliott that kind of drove it?
Margot Machol Bisnow
No, no. Mark was just… He’s always been very curious. He would drive out to work in Virginia every day, look at all these buildings coming up, and think, “Gee, I wonder, who is it that’s working here and what are these?” He just started looking into it, and then he thought, “I think I’m going to, on the side, start interviewing people about their jobs.” Anyhow, one thing led to the next, and he eventually decided to quit his job and do this newsletter full time, which turned out to be very successful.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s a great story. So, did you work with him at all on that newsletter? Was like a family business at one point?
Margot Machol Bisnow
Elliott was actually his first employee, it’s kind of a funny story. So, Elliott worked with him the summer between his sophomore and junior years, trying to sell ads for this newsletter business, and went back to college and was trying to sell ads from his dorm. We had sold like a few hundred dollars worth of ads at that point. When he told me he wanted to drop out, I didn’t want to be the bad parent and say no. But I wanted to make it impossible for him not to go back. So I said, “Okay, you can take a semester off, but if you want to stay dropped out, you have to sell a million dollars worth of ads,” which I thought would never happen. So of course, he sold a million dollars worth of ads and I was screwed.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s actually amazing. Raise the bar high, you never know what people will do.
Let’s talk about your book. Your book is amazing. Talk a little bit about the journey of both your family and those of the other families that you know. Raising an Entrepreneur: How to Help Your Children Achieve Their Dreams is an amazing topic. What led you to actually write the book? Was it because you saw too many parents doing the opposite, or because you saw great role models who were actually inspiring their kids, encouraging their kids? Or both?
Margot Machol Bisnow
So as I said, my son started this organization called Summit. It was conferences of young entrepreneurs, he started it in 2008. I started going to these events, I guess, really, in 2010 — I wanted to give him some space in the beginning — where I would meet all these young entrepreneurs. It wasn’t our world, we just hadn’t grown up with this, and I was so curious. I’d ask all of them: how did you turn out the way you did? So willing to take on so much risk, so willing to work so hard to achieve a goal, so willing to throw yourself into something that had a sort of small probability of success? They all told me the same thing. They all said, “Somebody told me that I could achieve anything I wanted to.” And usually they said, “My mom told me I could do anything I wanted to. My mom believed in me, so I believed in me.”
So, I was struck by this, by every single one of them telling me that someone, usually their mom, believed in them and told them they could do what they thought they could, and that this really affected them so deeply. I kept talking about it to the kids. I kept saying, “Wow, another person told me the same thing.” And the kids started saying, “You need to write a book.” I’m like, “I can’t write a book.” And they’re like, “No, you have to write a book.” “I can’t write a book.” And they said, “You have to write a book.” And I said, “Look, I’m not going to be one of these people who just writes a book, then can’t get a publisher, and then it just sits their drawer. I don’t want this to happen.” So Elliot said, “Look, I know someone who’s a book agent, I’m going to introduce you.”
So, he introduced me to this agent. He showed me how to write a proposal. I wrote a proposal. I got a contract with McGraw Hill Business. I was so excited and I started writing. I was like, halfway done when the person who’d bought it left for non-publishing startup, and it got kicked upstairs to her boss. I sent him what I had, and he said, “You have a lot of good stuff in here, but if you could, put all the stuff about moms in one chapter at the end, or better yet, an appendix.” So I said to my agent, “I’m actually never going to talk to this guy again, because he doesn’t want the book I want to write and I’m not writing the book he wants. So please, just get me out of my contract and get me out of here.” So I got out of the contract, and my agent said, “You know, we’re done. Nobody ever drops a book contract.” Then at this point, I was finished writing the book, and I had no contract and no agent. But anyhow, I found someone else and I got it published. So, all good. That’s the story.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s so great.
You’re listening “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and leadershipmattersshow.com. I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann. I’m here with Margot Machol Bisnow, who’s a great friend and a wonderful inspiration, and we’re talking about her book.
So, let’s get into the book a little bit, the key points and insights that you gathered when you wrote it. Because it sounds like you had to be quite an entrepreneur to get to the publication of the book. But once you did, you’ve gotten an amazing reception, actually.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Thank you. So, did you want me to talk about some of the rules in the book?
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. Tell us a little bit about the insights you draw — a little bit about yourself, obviously, that you drew from, as well with Elliot and then Austin — but also, talk a little bit about some of the other parents.
Margot Machol Bisnow
So, I interviewed 70 entrepreneurs. Can I just say: for me, an entrepreneur is anyone who starts something. It’s a for-profit, it’s a nonprofit, it’s an artist, it’s an activist. It can even be someone who starts an organization within a bigger organization. It’s just that sort of entrepreneurial mindset, where you’re willing to say, “I’m going to start this, I’m going to do it,” and you see it through.
Both of my kids are entrepreneurs, but the book is not about them. It’s about these other 70. And I’m happy to talk about my family later. When I first started, my son Elliot said, “Mom, please don’t just do the billion-dollar companies, because they’re all white men.” I thought that was such great advice. So it’s half men, half women. It’s every race, every religion, every socioeconomic background. Small towns, big cities; big family, small families; big companies, small companies; nonprofits; everything.
Some of the people just have six people working for them, and some of them have billion-dollar companies. But I kind of want to show parents that nobody else’s kid is going to be, you know, Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates. But you can start a business. You can start an organization. You can start a nonprofit. You can be an entrepreneur. It’s a wonderful career path that I think people should keep open. I just wanted to give them examples of people that looked like them and organizations that look like the kinds of things they wanted to do. So, it’s stories of all these people, how they grew up, what they’re doing today, and how their background affected them.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, you also took these many incredible stories and turned them into 10 rules for parenting. Tell us a little bit about some of the rules.
Margot Machol Bisnow
So that’s what really surprised me. I had such a diverse group of people, I could not have picked a more diverse group of people. And it never occurred to me that they would, basically, all have been raised the same. The more I got into it, and the more I realized they were all raised the same, the more excited I became about the project.
It’s actually funny; before I started, my kids said, “Write down what you think the 10 rules are.” I wrote it down, and I was wrong on every one of them.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. And they told you were wrong.
Margot Machol Bisnow
And yet, all of these kids were basically raised the same. Which to me, was so shocking and so thrilling.
So the number one thing — and it’s really surprising to me — but every one of these kids had a passion outside of school growing up. Every single one of them. And this has nothing to do with whether they were good academically; every single one of them had a passion. What I realized is that, when you have a passion, it’s something that you’ve chosen, that you love, that you pour yourself into. You get really good at it, and because you’re getting good at it, you’re working really hard at it. And because you’re working hard, you’re developing grit. And because you’re getting good, you’re developing confidence. You learn all these great things because you’ve gotten really, really good at something. It gives you the confidence and the skill so that, later on… Most of them aren’t doing anything having to do with what their passion was when they were young. But they develop the skillset that enabled them to be successful.
Alan Fleischmann
They’ve learned that passion can turn to action, if applied right and you let them apply it right. So in that sense, even if it’s not the things that they may have been raised to pursue, it’s that same passion, that same purpose, that same energy they can use to be an entrepreneur later.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Absolutely. Because they learned to be curious. I actually believe that, if you get really, really good at something, you’re curious, and you keep your eyes open, you will say to yourself, “Hey, what is there about this that needs fixing? What is there about this that I could do better? What is there about this that could be improved?” And so many of them ended up starting their business that way. I can give you some fun examples if you want.
Alan Fleischmann
I’d love that.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Okay. So, Joel Holland. He was in high school. He went in to talk to his guidance counselor about career opportunities and realized there was no good information. So, he wrote to a company and said, “Hey, if I interview CEOs about their companies, would you support me if I can get the following 20 CEOs?” They said yes, thinking he’d never get them. And he got them, so he started interviewing these people. One of the people he interviewed was Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was running for governor. He looked at the interview — they were online — and he realized it was visually boring. And he thought, “Gee, if there was only like a picture of the Hollywood sign or something in the back.” He looked into it, and he realized that stock footage was super expensive and hard to get.
So, he started this company called Footage Firm. He was doing it in high school, he took a year off after he got out of high school to work on it, and then he worked on it all through college. He then worked on it after college and ended up selling it a couple years later — half of it, for $10 million.
He decided to take some time off, got an RV, and started driving around the country. He realized, “There are all these places that would be so cool to stay at, like wineries and farms. And I have to say in these horrible RV parks.” He realized that there was another organization that had just gotten started called, Harvest Hosts, that lets people stay in really cool, interesting places. So that’s his next company.
So he’s done this twice. He started doing something, he realized how it could be done better, and he started a company with that. He’s done this twice, and both have been hugely successful.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s so cool. And were people, by the way, excited to be interviewed for the book.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Sure, yeah. Everybody was happy to. Everybody likes to say how wonderful their family is. I mean, they all love their families; every one of these people kept telling me how great their family was, how supportive their family was. Every single one of them.
Alan Fleischmann
Based on all the things you’ve learned about what parents do that keeps them in common and connects them all, what do you think that many parents forget? What are the things that they overlook to do?
Margot Machol Bisnow
I actually don’t think… I think it’s okay to forget things, as long as you kind of let your kids figure it out. I mean, it’s actually better not to do something for them and make them figure it out. I think the problem that parents have is not what they forget to do, but that they get too involved. They interfere, and they kind of give their kids the message, “You’re not competent to fix this on your own, we have to fix this for you.” That’s really a bad message.
That’s like the college admission scandal. What message were these parents communicating to their kids? “If you don’t go to this school, you can’t be successful in life and you’re not competent to get into the school on your own.” What a terrible message.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. Show your kids that can do anything, no matter what they do. And actually, I hope to take the pressure off kids, because they’re under a lot of pressure nowadays. You want to tell them that it doesn’t always matter where you go, you’re gonna succeed if you just have that passion, that purpose that you were talking about.
Margot Machol Bisnow
And that there will be times you won’t succeed and it’s okay. It’s okay to fail, because that’s how you’re going to learn, that’s how you’re going to grow, and that’s how you’re going to get better. Those are just bumps in the road to your success, and we’re here for you. They all told me this, every single one of them.
Jon Chu, who’s gone on since then to become a famous movie director with Crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights, told me, “My parents always believed in me. And I always knew if I failed, I could go home again, which gave me the courage to take risks.”
Alan Fleischmann
You’re right. There is a singular entrepreneurial thing in Silicon Valley, or the US in particular, where all the things you’ve failed are almost a badge of honor to get you on that journey. Eventually, you do succeed, but the failures actually lead you to succeed. When you think about these great stories about Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, and all these people that we admire in our history, they’re always people that failed, failed, and failed. But they had this insatiable curiosity that you refer to, and a great determination to never give up and followed their instincts until they did prevail.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Right. I just went to the Air and Space Museum last week. They’ve just reopened, and they have a huge exhibit on Wilbur and Orville Wright. These guys were bicycle builders and sellers. People thought they were nuts, and they just kept persisting. So this is not a new thing.
But yes, in answer to your question about what are parents do wrong: I think maybe the biggest mistake they would make — not the parents in my book, but other parents — is criticizing their kids when they don’t succeed, scolding their kids for failing. As opposed to saying, “What did you learn from this? What could you do better? How are you going to do it differently next time?”
I think the attitude toward failure is maybe the biggest difference between entrepreneurs and other people. As you said, entrepreneurs don’t view failure as a problem. As Billie Jean King says, “We don’t call it failure. We call it feedback.”
Alan Fleischmann
I also think that one of the ways I can tell, when somebody comes to me and asks if they should open their own thing… It’s that obsession in a good way I was telling you about. They’re focused on what they want to do, but they don’t spend all the time talking about if it doesn’t work, the risks to the reputation, or the risk to their economics. It’s almost as if that’s not even in their thinking and you have to remind them to think about the family you might need to provide for. But they’re just focusing on that enthusiastic, passionate idea that they have and going for it. Those that are telling me about all the things that might go wrong if they do do it are probably telling themselves they shouldn’t do it, too.
Margot Machol Bisnow
No, I agree completely.
Alan Fleischmann
But as you said, both your sons have been successful entrepreneurs in their own rights. I’d like you to talk about them in a little more detail. And I think it’s cool the way you define entrepreneur, because I hadn’t thought of it that way. You broadened it to be people who create something.
I was on a call with somebody last night who was talking about someone we knew in high school, who has been having some really tough times, with mental health issues with the family and also economic times. There was an organization, started by two women, who kind of come in and rescue you when you’re going through those periods. I was so struck by these two women when I heard the story. It’s a nonprofit entrepreneur who said, “We can help you with mental health support. We can help you by paying bills to get you through the next month. We’ll help you by bringing groceries over.” And then, they figured out a way to do all those things, somewhat at scale now, in order to be that kind of ‘we’re in this together’ kind of organization.
I thought, “Gosh, that’s a real entrepreneur too, found a need and figured it out.” But I hadn’t thought as broadly as you described until your description, actually,
Margot Machol Bisnow
That actually is a wonderful entrepreneur, I love that. As I said, we didn’t grow up thinking about entrepreneurship. I didn’t think about my kids becoming entrepreneurs. So much of what I did right, and why my kids turned out the way they did, I didn’t even think about until I was writing the book and I started listening to all the other lessons.
I think the thing that really struck me about both my kids… And I should tell you that my younger son, Austin, started a band, Magic Giant, which is fantastic. Everybody should listen to Magic Giant. But anyhow, both my kids had passions growing up from, like, the age of 13 on. For Elliott, it was tennis, and for Austin, it was writing music. We know nothing about tennis or music. We don’t play tennis. We don’t write music. We don’t know anything. But we saw how happy they were and how they were thriving. They were just doing amazing things and it gave them such joy, much more than school did. We were like, “Great. You’re happy, great.”
It’s only looking back that I realized that, because they had passionate in areas we knew nothing about, we couldn’t help them. They had to figure it out themselves. And I’m a really helpful person; if they had been interested in international development, or economics, or writing, or anything law or aviation with my husband — anything we knew something about — we would have been all over them with advice and helpful suggestions. But we couldn’t. We couldn’t tell Austin what instruments to study, who to study with, what hardware to get, what software to get, how to make a CD, what songs to put on his CD. We couldn’t tell Elliott who to train with, what rackets to get, what tournaments to enter. They figured everything out. I look back and I’m like, “Wow, that worked out really well.” But I didn’t know it at the time.
I’ll tell you another kind of interesting thing that I realized only after I wrote the book and was looking back at of it. So, I wanted to expose our kids to everything when they were young and I didn’t want them to quit, like, after an hour and a half. There’s an opportunity cost, it takes a while. But you know, once they really got into it, if they hated it, I’d let them quit once they finished the semester or whatever. We gave Austin piano lessons when, I think, he was in fourth grade. He didn’t like it, and I’m like, “Okay, we’ll write off the piano.” Then he started writing music when he was about 13 and he was just picking out notes on the computer. Then when he was in, I think, 10th grade, he decided he wanted to do piano lessons. He found a piano teacher who taught him how to play the chords. Anyhow, it was the middle of 11th grade, it was exam week. I walked into the family room, and he was playing the piano. He’s an extraordinary piano player, by the way, brilliant piano player. He’s playing this gorgeous music. But of course, I say, “It’s exam week Austin. Stop playing the piano and go study.” And I’ll never forget it: he said, “I have a new song in my head, I just have to play it so I can visualize it, so I can write it down when exams are over.”
So first of all, I was like, “Oh my god, our brains are actually nothing alike.” It was the first time I realized that he was really smart, just in a completely different way from me. But also, it made me realize that it wasn’t that he didn’t like the piano. It was that he didn’t like the piano teacher, who was very rigid, who was like, “See this little black circle? Play this little white note,” instead of having a teacher who helped him translate the music in his brain through his fingers, so that he could play whatever music he was inspired by.
I think it’s a really important lesson for parents that, you know, maybe your kid isn’t doing well because of the teacher, not because of your kid. Maybe the teachers just don’t get who your kid is and don’t appreciate who your kid is. Maybe your kid has all sorts of gifts that would do better with a different teacher or with a different school.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s an amazing insight, an amazing point. Because we’ve seen how the opposite is true, as you pointed out by interviewing all these people for the book. Almost all of them have mentors, someone who actually did say “you’ve got something in you,” whether it’s the parent or some teacher. Somebody who said, “Go for it. You are special, there is something special in you.” And I think you’re pointing out the opposite; In other words, if you’re so lucky to have a mentor and then take advantage of it, you’re gonna have a better journey. Generally, don’t blame the kid.
Margot Machol Bisnow
But what I’m saying is, generally, these mentors are not their teachers. A lot of these kids… Look, half of these kids did really well in school. A quarter of them breezed through Ivies and got advanced degrees. But a quarter of them were always miserable in school and ended up dropping out of college, not finishing. So many of them struggled in school; they weren’t appreciated in school, they asked too many questions, they annoyed their teachers, they didn’t give the teachers the answers they wanted. I mean, that’s another whole conversation.
This is why I’m so opposed to colleges just wanting to take kids based on their SATs. Just because you’re a good test taker doesn’t mean you’re going to change the world. A lot of these kids were terrible test takers, and they’re brilliant, they’re creative, they’re interesting. They want to think of different ways to do things. They think outside the box. Lots of times, teachers don’t like that. It’s kind of like I was with Austin: you think all kids’ brains are the same as yours, and they’re not. Some kids are really, really different, and you just have to respect that. That’s why, when a kid is under appreciated at school, they can get a mentor in the area that they love who tells them that they’re great.
One of the people in the book is named Benny Blanco. He’s had like 20 number one hits and he’s been Songwriter of the Year. His mom told me that she got a call every week from his kindergarten teacher, saying, “Benny won’t sit in the circle.” And she would say, “So?” All his teachers found him annoying. And then he found a mentor with a music teacher in high school and said he was the most talented kid he’d ever met. Another kid like that, Jeff Marx, wrote Avenue Q. It was the same thing, his teachers all found him really annoying. And he finally found a mentor who said, “Oh my god, you’re amazing” It’s just hard for these kids who think differently.
Alan Fleischmann
And kids want that mentor. It’s a natural extension of life to know that you’ve got somebody rooting for you. And wanting to have someone root for you, as well, to be there to pick you up when you’re not doing really great.
I guess that leads to another thing, too — did mental health come up in conversations with people too? Because there’s also the downside of being an entrepreneur, and it’s that taking on such risk is stressful. They do it, but they’re not doing it blindly. In other words, they are not immune distress. They’re busy, they’re working hard, they’re trying to have a balanced life, whatever that means. I’m just curious whether issues around mental health have come up and whether you think about that as well.
Margot Machol Bisnow
In terms of kids and mental health, I think so many young people are unhappy today because they’re working so hard on things their parents think are important. They’ve never been given the time and the space to figure out what they love. Or maybe they do, and their parents say, “You can’t spend so much time on that, you have to go and study your biology.”
I think all of the kids and all of the entrepreneurs in the book were pretty happy people, because they were all doing something they loved and their parents were proud of them for their success in that area. I just think that’s super, super important. Not to be disappointed with your kid because they’re not straight-A students. Not to be disappointed with your kid because they didn’t hit the winning home run or whatever. To be proud of your kids for how hard they’re working, to be proud of your kids because they’ve poured themselves into something they love and they’re getting better at it. I think that leads to happy kids.
In terms of happy adults — all of these entrepreneurs, as kids, were raised to be compassionate, to care about others, to make a difference in the world, and to want to create a better product. They’re not making Hamburger Helper. They’re doing things that are that are good for people and that are changing the world. Sometimes they’re making money at it, like TOMS Shoes, which is a very successful company, but they’ve given away 100 million pairs of shoes. Or Method Products, which is a very successful company. Before Method, it’s hard to remember, but the only cleaning supplies were disgusting, stinky, chemical-laden products. These are for-profit companies, but they’re certainly making a better product.
I think when you’re making a product that you believe in, that you’re excited about bringing to the world, and when you get people around you that share your beliefs, your values, and your culture… Yes, it’s hard. But it’s not depressing.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s very interesting. We’re expanding my definition of entrepreneurs in a way today, though I have always thought of entrepreneurial people in every sector.
Having been in government, I do admire the entrepreneurs in government, I think we need more of them. People who are thinking out of the box, who can bust through bureaucracy, who understand the urgency of getting things to the people quickly, who understand innovation is their responsibility and take that on. As a former government official yourself, how do you create that entrepreneurial environment in government? And how essential is it? I think the answer to the latter is, it’s essential. But how do you actually do that?
Margot Machol Bisnow
I’ve given this a lot of thought, and I think the biggest problem with government is that you’re not praised if you try something that fails. There’s such a premium on not failing that they’re not bold, and they’re not creative, because they’re nervous about what happens if it doesn’t succeed.
The main advantage of the private sector… And by the way, I think the most successful government programs now are in partnership with the private sector, because they can rely on the private sector. But so many of the organizations in my book are private-sector organizations doing stuff the government should be doing, but wasn’t. I mean, Charity Water has built 60,000 wells for 12 million people in 29 countries. Kiva has provided $2 billion from 2 million lenders for 4 million people, mostly loans of $25 each.
So these are all great organizations that someone in the private sector figured out how to do. Which is great. It’s just tough in the government, you don’t want to fail. And, and if you don’t want to fail…
Alan Fleischmann
It’s really hard to fail because you’re spending taxpayer money and you haven’t been given the permission to fail. Then you’re also, politically, just destroyed. I mean, I’ve seen people in government have their reputations ruined for programs that existed before they even started serving in government. It happened and they’re responsible for it when it was discovered, but they weren’t really even there when it was actually run. They’re even vulnerable to that.
So you’re right about that idea —you have to be able to fail in order to be able to be entrepreneurial in government too.
Margot Machol Bisnow
If you would indulge me — I was thinking about your podcast and your leadership lessons for adults when I was getting ready for this. My book is really about how to raise kids. But when I went to my favorite list in the book of what parents should do, I realized it’s really exactly the same for companies. So if I could just quickly read through this…
Alan Fleischmann
I’d love you to, please do. That’s awesome.
Margot Machol Bisnow
I said, “All children thrive if they learn to believe in themselves; to pursue their true passions; to find new ways to solve old problems; to see opportunity where others see the status quo; to be willing to take on a challenge without proper credentials; to work with single-minded determination to achieve a goal; to take on risk if the project is worth trying; to learn that building something wonderful is its own reward, regardless of how much money you make; to view failure as feedback and setbacks as learning experiences; and to dream big dreams.
That’s actually true for anyone in a company, any employee. So I think these are really applicable lessons. You want to encourage your employees to be curious and to think of new ways to solve problems. You want to encourage them to think outside the box, to think of ways to improve things that haven’t been done before. You want to encourage them to believe that they can actually do it, and succeed, and have the courage of their convictions. You want to encourage them to have grit and determination and to see it through.
I can go on and on. There’s so many of these things that are so important when you’re raising your kids, but it’s also so important for leaders and companies to do with their employees. To take ownership of mistakes and not scold people for screwing up. To just say hey, that’s how we learn and that’s how we’re gonna get better. Empowering employees to make decisions and trusting your employees just like you. You want to trust your kids to make the right decisions.
It’s just sort of interesting. I’d never thought about any of this before thinking about this podcast and talking to you. It was so interesting to me to realize that it’s the same lessons.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s extraordinary, actually. 100%.
There’s one other thing, too, to add to the list. We’ve talked about it on this show before — the power of having fun. We focus on purpose, on impact, on passion, and on innovation. On filling that gap that’s in the marketplace or fulfilling needs in the community. But even with all that purpose, if you’re not having fun, that’s a mistake, too. We don’t give ourselves permission to have fun.
Margot Machol Bisnow
I agree completely. And that’s another rule from the book about families that’s also true for companies. So many of the entrepreneurs said, “My family was such a wonderful, fun, experience-loving, warm, nurturing experience, and that’s what I want my company to be. We want our company to be like our family, to support, to nurture, to be there, to not worry about making mistakes, and to have fun.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, it’s not easy to do. You’ve got to do more of that in order to have that endurance, almost. Because it’s a marathon, not always a real quick race. You need that endurance in order to be an innovative and continue to be.
I’m curious, even when you’re looking at Elliott was Summit — what I like about the team at Summit is that they seem like they’re always reinventing themselves. They were the young kids on the block who created a new generation of gathering, of bringing people together at those uncommon tables. And they still are. But that could get old after they start growing up a little bit, that could be yesterday’s news and not be as relevant. But they haven’t lost their relevance, too. So I guess one of the lessons of being an entrepreneur is not to rest on your laurels.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Laurel, where did that word come from?
Alan Fleischmann
Exactly. But you want to maintain that curiosity.
I love that you keep driving in those words — passion, purpose, and curiosity. And I think having people constantly reinvent and repurpose is important.
Margot Machol Bisnow
And resilience. Because every single one of these people said to me, “We get knocked down, we pick ourselves up.” Jonathan Neiman from Sweetgreen: “We try, we fail. We try, we fail. We try, we fail.” He said, “I’m not smarter than anyone, I just never give up.” Every single one of them said, “I never give up. I never give up.”
And maybe you pivot, maybe you change and adapt and grow, like you’re talking about. But you never quit.
Alan Fleischmann
I think that’s right, never quit. And also, knowing that you may hit a wall, but there’s a door somewhere. I think that’s right.
Is there an entrepreneur in you now? Is there another book in you now?
Margot Machol Bisnow
Oh god, I don’t think so. I’m just having fun talking about it and trying to get the message out. I’m excited to go next month to Summit in Palm Springs. I’m going to be talking about raising kids with Christina Sass, who’s one of the cofounders of Andela, which is one of my favorite companies in the world and believes, like I do, that intelligence is evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. They’re creating jobs for people in less-developed countries to work remotely for people in developed countries. It’s a wonderful company.
But anyhow, I’m just excited to talk about this, because like we were saying before, I think so many kids are unhappy because their parents think they have to pressure the kids to do what worked for the parents when the parents were growing up. I want to scream. It’s a different time. It’s a different world. Let go, see what your kids are good at, see what gives them a spark in their eyes, see what makes them happy, and let them spend time working on that. Try to encourage that. I think if more parents relaxed a little bit and realized that their kids don’t have to follow the path they went on, that there will be a lot more happy kids in the world. So that’s my mission at the moment.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. Is there one thing in your life that you know you want to jump in and do now that you haven’t done yet? That you know is next thing for you? I’m just curious.
Margot Machol Bisnow
I want to go to Antarctica.
Alan Fleischmann
Is that true? Okay, good. You’ve got a calling there.
Margot Machol Bisnow
It’s just been on my bucket list for so many years, I’m determined to get there.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Not the answer you expected.
Alan Fleischmann
When you see a parent interacting with a kid, are you looking at them differently than you did before now that you’ve done such research for your book and you’ve written it? You’re not shy; do you find yourself ever saying, let me pull the parent aside or pull the kid aside and say, “go for it at any age,” or tell the parent, “say it a little differently?” Do you find yourself compelled to do that, or not really?
Margot Machol Bisnow
I do, actually. If they’re complaining that their kid isn’t doing well enough in school, I want to ask: What do they love? What are they good at? What are they enjoying? What are they passionate about? Some parents will say, “Oh my God, they’re spending all their time on video games.” and I’m, “That’s great. You can make so much money in video games.”
One of the one of the people in my book, Thomas Vu, is one of the co-creators of League of Legends. He just helped do this TV show for Netflix called Arcane based on one of his video games. His parents were horrified at first, because he dropped out of bioengineering to work on this. But hey, you know, it’s a different world out there. If that’s what your kids are good at, let them do it. I talk to these parents and they’re like, “Oh no, my kid dropped out, I’m trying to make him go back.” “Oh, what’s he majoring in?” “History.” “Well, does he like history?” “No.” “Well, what does he like?” “He likes tinkering with cars.” Well then, let him get a degree in automotive engineering. Listen to your kid.
Alan Fleischmann
And actually, looking back when they’re successful at doing something, you can almost 100% say, “Well, I could see that when you were two, I could see that when you were 10.” But if you don’t let them actually fulfill that, then you don’t see that continuity.
Margot Machol Bisnow
No, and it’s hard for parents. Parents are just they have this mindset. To believe in your kid and to believe that… It’s not like parents grew up saying, “Oh, I hope my kid ends up doing something with video games.” Jon Chu, who I mentioned before, his parents were immigrants, they ran a restaurant. They wanted him and his siblings to be professionals, and he was making movies from the time he was in fourth grade. His parents were like, “You need to focus on your homework.” He was, I think, in 10th grade, and he was supposed to be asleep. His mom came in and he was doing a video. His mom said, “Put that down and go to sleep. You’ve got to be prepared to do well in school tomorrow.” He burst into tears. He said, “I love this, it’s what I want to do for my life, you can’t make me stop.” She said, “Go to sleep.”
She picked him up at school the next day, and she’d gone to the library, and gotten all these filmmaking books. She said, “You know, if you want to do it be the best.”
Alan Fleischmann
That’s awesome. What a great story.
Margot Machol Bisnow
I love that. Because it’s hard for parents to realize that what their kid wants to do is not a waste of time.
Alan Fleischmann
We’re wired, as parents, to be nurturers and make sure your kids are safe, And it’s important, being safe and safety — and financial security. You want to make sure that they’re okay. But at the same time, you want them to live.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Right. And you want them to be happy, and you want them to thrive. Elliot was the first, he was this passionate tennis player. He played like five hours a day, six days a week. He started very late and he lost a lot, but it was his sport; he just kept going and going. He was like, “I know what I did wrong. I’ll beat them next time.” He was the first graduate of JTCC where he trained… Where Frances Tiafoe also grew up, who’s the top men’s tennis player today in the US. But anyhow, he was the first of their students to be given an award for what he had done off the court. When he gave his talk, he said, “I wasn’t a great student. Everything I am today is because of tennis. Tennis is where I learned grit, focus, hard work, determination, and not to be afraid to fail.”
As a result of this, the people at JTCC now have a different spiel for parents. It’s not just, “Come here because your kid can end up getting a tennis scholarship or go on the tour.” It’s, “Come here because whatever your kid ends up doing, whether it’s in tennis or not, the skills they learn working that hard at something are gonna help them, whatever they do.”
Alan Fleischmann
That’s brilliant. Once you find your passion, your purpose, and you can apply it, you’ll know what success is. You’ll know what risk is. You’ll know what failure is. Then you can apply it to other things along your journey and career.
Margot Machol Bisnow
Absolutely.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s wonderful.
You’ve been listening to “Leadership Matters” on SiriusXM and leadershipmattersshow.com. I’m your host, Alan Fleischmann. We’ve had an amazing hour with Margot Machol Bisnow, author of Raising an Entrepreneur. We’ve had such a great conversation with you about how you’ve done it, but also, about the great rules and lessons that you’ve lived by and learned from other parents who’ve done the same. So, thank you for being on the show today.
Margot Machol Bisnow
I loved it. It’s always wonderful to talk to you.