Dr. David Kessler
Chief Science Officer, White House COVID-19 Response Team
When you talk about something that is as big as what we've undertaken, it’s its own creature. Every experience that I've had, I've had to draw on. This is not the point where there is learning on the job.
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan is joined by Dr. David Kessler, Chief Science Officer of the White House COVID-19 Task Force. Drawing on Dr. Kessler’s depth of experience across the public and private sectors, civil society, and academia, he and Alan discuss the challenging logistics of vaccine rollout in the United States and how Dr. Kessler anticipates the battle against the coronavirus will evolve over time.
Dr. Kessler is no stranger to making big organizations move quickly. As head of the Food and Drug Administration under presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, he helped to increase efficiency at the department and transform it into the modern institution it is today. In his discussion with Alan, Dr. Kessler hones in on the particular circumstances necessary to make meaningful progress possible and how leaders across industries have had to grapple with keeping their teams safe and healthy. While clearsighted about the difficulties ahead, he is proud of the COVID-19 Task Force’s work and the collaboration it has achieved across a host of governmental organizations.
Guest Bio
Dr. David A. Kessler was appointed Chief Science Officer of the White House COVID-19 task force on January 15, 2021. Professor of Pediatrics and Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of California, San Francisco, Dr. Kessler held multiple public and private sector lead positions in medical science before serving as FDA Commissioner from 1990-1997, after which he was named dean of Yale medical school (1997-2003) and Dean of the School of Medicine and the Vice Chancellor for Medical Affairs at UCSF (2003-2007).
During his time as FDA Commissioner, Dr. Kessler was active in progressing the development and approval of AIDS drugs in the 1990s. Recently, he has been serving as a key advisor to President Biden on COVID-19 policy and was co-chair of the Biden transition team’s COVID-19 task force.
Clips from this Episode
On the efforts to protect President Biden from COVID during the campaign
On helping the Biden campaign prepare to address the pandemic
On why a "complex political environment" is their biggest challenge
On why consensus and broad support is needed for progress in science
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM. I'm your host Alan Fleischmann. My guest today has dedicated his life to protecting the health and wellbeing of American citizens across a career spanning more than three decades.
Dr. David Kessler is a renowned medical expert, author, professor, and administrator who currently serves as the Chief Science Officer for the White House COVID-19 Response Team. In this role, Dr. Kessler oversees efforts to expand and accelerate the production and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines in the United States. David — as I like to call him since he's a good friend — is a key leader in American medicine who has worked across the public and private sectors and civil society, as well as in academia. He's the former dean of the Yale School of Medicine and also served as Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration under presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. As head of the FDA, he is well known for his efforts to increase efficiency at the agency, push back against the tobacco industry, and advance the development of life saving treatments for AIDS. He has been hailed as one of the most important FDA commissioners in the agency's history.
From vaccine logistics to internal approval processes, Dr. David Kessler has long been on the cutting edge of the complex interactions between government and medicine, and can speak firsthand to the challenges of making big organizations move nimbly. I am thrilled to have him here to share some of his insights.
David, thank you for joining us today. Welcome to Leadership Matters. I don't think I told the full picture of your story, because I know the San Francisco part of your life as well, which I did not touch on in that bio, did I?
David Kessler
Dean at UCSF Medical School, also.
Alan Fleischmann
You've had an amazing journey. I am fully confessing here that I'm not only a great admirer of your great leadership and work, but I also consider you a dear friend and am grateful that you're on the show. And as you know, on this show, we have CEOs, investors, leaders, inventors, and aspiring leaders who are listening. And I know that they're gonna enjoy not only hearing about your life's journey today, but also your insights into leadership itself, since you have been and you continue to be such an important leader in this country.
I'd like to start with the most recent chapter of your career, leading the White House effort, the COVID-19 Task Force as part of the leadership team. Can you walk us through a little bit of your first few weeks the job and how you set your priorities? Then we're going to go back in time, but I wanted to least get that out before we started.
David Kessler
It's been about… Actually, it's been exactly two years, almost to the day, from when we started. But you'll notice that it's only been about 14 months, from January 20th. I got called March 13, 2020.
Alan Fleischmann
it was from candidate from then-candidate, Vice President Biden.
David Kessler
Actually, the call was from a friend of ours, who you know well. She's Anita Dunn. And she was really the chief strategist for the campaign at that time. It was a Friday, and I got a phone call, At that time, people were still functioning, businesses were running. And she called because we were friends over the years, going back to the Clinton White House when I was FDA commissioner, and she said, “can you help out? What do we do?” They were running a full campaign at that point. Their headquarters were up.
It was a Friday afternoon, and I remember it vividly because I talked to a couple of the operating folks there, looked at what we knew, I think it must have been around 3:30 that afternoon. I sent everyone home, and they listened. The campaign headquarters shut down. Over the weekend, Anita called back and said, “would you be willing to brief the then former Vice President on Monday? He's being briefed by his economic team and his foreign policy team, but they really don't have any public health experience. Would you be willing to come in and brief?” I said, Sure. And she said, “would you be willing to do it with Vivek Murthy?” And I said, sure. Vivek was a medical student when I was dean at Yale. So that Monday, we got on the phone, which moved over the next couple of weeks to Zoom. And what then started that Monday became a daily exercise throughout the campaign.
I had at one point said to him that — it was one of those pertinent moments, where you go, oh, boy, did I just say that? — the epidemic was in full swing upward, he saw the daunting challenge of what it would mean to govern. We had mapped out the curve of that first wave, it was clear from the epidemiological modelers that I was talking to that the epidemic would peak, that wave would peak, in January 2021. And that would be exactly at the time when the inauguration would happen. And that sort of that weight, you can see, was really setting in within that precedent. And at one point while we were talking about the likelihood of a vaccine, I said, “Mr. Vice President, I'll make you a deal, you become president, we'll take care of vaccines and vaccinations.” And I guess that's what we did on January 20.
While the previous administration certainly had set up and invested very significantly and deserve real credit, my colleagues who preceded me, on January 20, when we took over at 12 o'clock noon, we came in and there weren't vaccines in arms and there wasn't a plan for vaccines in arms. And now, we’ve delivered some 695 million vaccines. 559 million have actually been administered. 76.7% of the population have had a first dose, and about 50%, a little less, have been boosted. Basically, anybody who has wanted to protect themselves from this virus has had the opportunity to do that. And certainly, you know, we’ve had ups and downs.
We also spent a considerable amount of time… You mentioned HIV. Going back to when I was commissioner in the 1990s, it was very important to deal with that epidemic and bring anti-virals to the markets. And there were no plans for antivirals at that time when we came in on January 20. And now, we have antivirals, one highly effective molecule. So you know, we can start putting this behind us because of those vaccines and those antivirals.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. What is the biggest challenge you face? Is it political, logistical, technological, or just all the above?
David Kessler
I think that the hardest challenge has been… science is complex, we know how to do that. Manufacturing is complex, we know how to do that. The regulatory aspects are complex, but we know how to do that. The hardest part has really been doing this in a very complex political environment. We have many opinions in this country, a great diversity of views. But our biggest failing, I think, is that we've not been able to protect everybody. We certainly have been able to protect people who want to be protected. But certainly for the last 10 months, there are probably very few deaths that could not have been avoided. Most of those were in patients who were unvaccinated.
Alan Fleischmann
I was speaking to someone this last weekend who did not want to get vaccinated, surprisingly to me, but was very comfortable with the antiviral pill. When I asked, “why you wouldn't want to be vaccinated?” The answer was, “I don't know what's in it.” But when I asked the question, “what's in the antiviral pill?” The answer was, “I don't know what's in it too.” So I often wonder whether one of our biggest challenges in life is always the communications and messaging part. You inherited a lot of them, obviously it wasn't just your own, but how do we get people comfortable with medicine and science? It’s not easy.
David Kessler
There's always been a long history, and you certainly see it on the inside of the FDA. A lot of people — there are a lot of different belief systems on what people want to put in their bodies. I am fully respectful of that. But if I gave you a choice and said, would you prefer me intervening before that virus attacked your lung cells? Before it got inside that lung cell, and inside your liver, kidney, brain, and nervous system? Would you like me to make sure it doesn't attach to it or do you want me to treat it once it's in? Which would you prefer?
And then there’s the choice between a 30 cent mask or a $500 anti viral. A $2,000 monoclonal versus a $30 vaccine. Some people go, “oh, alright, I'd rather take the monoclonals. Don't give me the $30 vaccine, give me the $2,000 monoclonal. Or the $500 antiviral.” Look, my job was to get those products out, to bring them out. They serve an important need. I'm glad they can save lives. That's been the bottom line. This is not over by any means. We need to bring other products to the market that are safe and effective. We need other antivirals. We need vaccines that last longer. We still have a job to do.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s what I was going to ask you, because the battle obviously against coronaviruses is obviously evolving constantly. How do you see the task force and the work of the task force changing over the next few years? Is it to do just as you described? Kind of push for other options? Longer vaccines? Anticipating variants? How does that work?
David Kessler
Cases are coming down very dramatically in the United States. As of today, hospitalizations are coming down, deaths are coming down, but still lagging. But we could not ask for anything better on the Omicron cases. I mean, that curve is plummeting. I think we are cautiously and with a little concern, watching our European colleagues as cases seem to be going up in the UK and in Germany. Is that the taking off of masks, the relaxation of restrictions, or is it this BA2 sub-Omicron variant? It's hard to sort that out. And obviously, we're watching what's going on in Hong Kong and China.
Alan Fleischmann
I don't like what’s happening there, yeah.
David Kessler
I don't think any of us believe this is over. I think we have to be prepared for the next increase in cases. As we go into the spring, I hope we can keep this down. We've seen summer rises, we certainly have seen winter rises, and I think the American public will expect us to be prepared for whatever is thrown at us along the course.
We’ve been here before, we had two variants in 2021. Omicron, even with the increased transmissibility, is not mild, but it's milder than delta. And it certainly has taken up, if you look at the space the viruses can take, and it has competed better. So we've lucked out that it's not as virulent as it could have been. But it's coming down and the question is: what's going to fill that virological void?
Alan Fleischmann
As long as we're managing expectations properly, we’re cautiously optimistic knowing that things could always change. And you may have to come back and say, at some point, mask up again and do other things again. Hopefully, we don't get there. But the chances are, we probably will.
David Kessler
I think there's no doubt that we want a vaccine that is more durable. We see the mRNA vaccines hold on hospitalizations and death pretty well so far. The data for four to six months shows it holding at about 75-80%. We'll see over the next number of days whether that continues or whether that drops.
It's certainly very likely that people, certainly those who are at higher risk and those over 65, will need a boost sooner. I would not be surprised if we move toward, just like with flu, on an annual basis. So we want to be able to make sure people are protected. The goal is to be able to assure people are protected against whatever form that virus may mutate into next. And we certainly have had curveballs before.
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with my good friend, Dr. David Kessler, who is a renowned medical expert, author, professor, and is currently serving as the Chief Science Officer of the White House COVID-19 Response Team. Let’s jump back a little bit to the early life of David Kessler. You were born in New York, and raised in New York if I'm not mistaken. What did your parents do? What was life like in the Kessler home as you grew up?
David Kessler
My mom was a school psychologist and my dad was an engineer. I was born in Brooklyn, grew up on South Shore Long Island, then went off to school for about 20 years.
Alan Fleischmann
And was there a moment growing up where you said “I want to pursue medicine?” Was there something that inspired you?
David Kessler
I try to go back and think that through, it was almost as if it were there from birth. I can't quite figure it out. I mean, there were a couple of other degrees along the way that were much harder that I did agonize over. But medicine was always, always in the cards for some reason.
Alan Fleischmann
So you went to Amherst College, got your undergraduate degree, and then you went on to receive a doctorate at Harvard and a JD at the University of Chicago. So those were the ones that weren't as easy as medicine, I guess.
David Kessler
You know, med school was easy. Law school was the hard part. That was the one I agonized over. It's not something I recommend to most people when it comes up.
It is certainly is not required, but certainly in the jobs that I’ve done… You talked about tobacco a little earlier. I don't think we could have done tobacco without having that kind of framework. It's just much easier when you’re a lawyer. I've had great general counsels — HHS general counsels, FDA general counsels — but when they know that you know and speak their language, that you understand statute, you understand the extent of your authority, it’s just a different dialogue. Certainly, whenever you have the privilege of serving in these jobs — which do all come from some statutory authority: your ability to protect health, regulate the food, drug, and medical supply, what an emergency use authorization is, what a public health emergency is, what you can and what you cannot do, what the limits are — it's been very helpful. It gives you a confidence, that you do not have to just listen to the lawyers, you can be part of that dialogue.
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing when you think about it, because you've had such a storied career that does intersect between public life, public policy life, as well as scientific life. And I don't know whether it's the law degree that opened up those doors for you or whether it's because those doors opened that you got the law degree. I'm sure a little bit of both, you have that credential, which gave you the key to open those doors, or certainly to be at the table.
David Kessler
I view myself as a doc, it's who I am. If I could give away my law degree right now, I probably would. I don't play lawyer, but it just helps me at the table on some of these complex decisions.
Alan Fleischmann
You've been advisor to Senator Orrin Hatch at times. You were appointed by Bush #41 as the FDA commissioner in 1990. And when you think of all you accomplished during that period, raising standards for new drug protocols and approvals, increasing efficiency at the agency — personally, I started really understanding the industry when you were at the helm — and finding regulators in the tobacco industry. Looking back, is it the fight against tobacco that was your greatest achievement at that point, or are there other highlights that people forget?
David Kessler
You have any packaged food in your office? Just pull it up and look at the nutrition facts label. We did the food label when we were FDA. So every time you you pick that up and you see what the calories are, total fat, you can blame me.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. The size of the policy landscape has changed a lot since you were at the FDA. It’s obviously so key to all the things that we're talking about, even now. Do you think that it's in a stronger position today than it was even a few years ago? Or is it in a more threatened position? The FDA matters so much.
David Kessler
You know, it's interesting. For seven years, I ran the FDA. And that was my focus. Yes, it was part of HHS. Yes, it was part of the administration. But I lived just the agency. I left the Humphrey Building back in 1997. On January 20, I walked back in, and it was as if nothing changed. It was like it was just waiting there.
But it's a different role, because I sit at the intersection of the FDA; my NIH colleagues, Dr Fauci and NIAID; my CDC colleagues, Dr. Walensky; BARDA and the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness; and the Secretary, my colleagues, and friends at the White House. It’s a team, everyone has their role to do.
But at the end of the day, this is focused on a virus that has continued to challenge and humble us. But I think if you look at the science — which was your question — the science has been just amazing. I mean, at Warp Speed we invested in five vaccines. Three are EUA. Two others, a little more complicated, have shown effectiveness. Antivirals, we pushed hard. We really worked on three last year and two hit. To have vaccines that work, antivirals that are safe and effective, and be able to make a difference that no one has ever done. That kind of mass effort, 600-700 million free doses in arms, being able to pull that off, that's really been the difference. So I've just had the privilege of, in some ways, of no authority but plenty of responsibility of trying to make this work. And we each have had our voices, as part of this.
Alan Fleischmann
it must have been very challenging, though, because you're one of the very few who's been the FDA commissioner twice in our history. You’ve been a dean, you've run things throughout your whole career, and now you're in a situation of great influence. You have the ear of some of the most significant people, including the president. But you also have to play that collaborative, highly communicative coordinating role, which at the end of the day, is probably the most challenging role anyone can play. Because everybody has to buy in, I imagine, everybody has to be singing from the same song sheet.
David Kessler
I think you just hit it just as eloquently as one could. Look, I ran a teaching hospital in the Bronx, I've had the privilege of being dean or vice chancellor of some of the great medical schools and medical centers. I've run large government agencies, in and of themselves. But when you talk about something that is as big as what we've undertaken, it’s its own creature. Every experience that I've had, I've had to draw on. This is not the point where there is learning on the job. My colleague and friend, Jeff Zients, has a big blanket on his couch that says ‘execute, execute, execute.’
There are moments on this job where I need time to go think. Because my job is what's around the corner. It's not being prepared for today, because I had to be prepared for today six months ago. What’s around that corner? So that's the the hard part. You know the way it is, I mean, you've lived it. Just looking forward, there's a debate right now on the Hill, I hope it gets sorted out. We’ve asked for additional funds for vaccines and antivirals and it didn't go very well last week. You scratch your head and ask, “do you really not want me to have vaccines ready for the next round? Do you really not want to invest in antivirals?” To me that's not rational, no matter which side of the aisle you're on.
The great thing is, and I think the thing that the President has always said, is to use the word ‘free’ before the word ‘vaccines.’ And I think that's part of who we is. Billions and billions of dollars, no one wants to pay for that, right? If there's a surge, “Kessler, where is it? We need it now. Why don't you have it?” So it's almost the American way.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah. And people say no, at the same time not realizing… It requires the chess player in you, the strategic thinker and persuader, to have all those skills that you do so well. But it must be very frustrating, when you see things that could be and not have the resources you need?
David Kessler
Look, I think individually, if you go talk to a member of Congress about this, 99.9% get it. Are you really saying you don't want me to have the next antiviral? Are you really saying we can't do a vaccine campaign in the fall? Individually, they're all with you. But there's something when they're in a room, or there's something in the air that always seems to get in the way these days. I think it's just much harder.
Alan Fleischmann
Look you've led a government agency, you've been a leader of a task force, you've led schools. When you compare it to private sector leadership — and you've been a leader in private, public, and civil society — how do you actually measure the challenges? Is it the same skills?
Because you're bringing not only the leadership skills, which means you're getting other people to buy in and persuading them. But you also understand the value and the need for strategy. And then you have the science part of it. And you’re not just relying on scientists, you are one, so as you are getting insight and information, you're able to actually unpack it. What's more complicated?
David Kessler
When you're in these jobs it is remarkable, just an enormous privilege. And I'm not just saying that. We have spent considerable resources and taxpayer resources. I've been responsible for billions of dollars that have been paid out on these vaccines and these antivirals for the research, and I think that we certainly have recovered the benefits of that. You don't have all the tools; the government doesn't manufacture these vaccines or these pills, they don't manufacture the bio reactors or the bags. And a lot of this is a very human enterprise.
I remember one conversation with a CEO, very early on, who said that he was going to take his product and sell it elsewhere or sell it on the private market. And I looked at him, and I just simply said, “that's not going to happen.” And you have to do this in a way, and I think we have, where there's an enormous amount of respect with the private sector. We don't always agree, there are some intense discussions as that one was. But at the end of the day, all you have is your word and an ability to negotiate. Now, when you're doing it on behalf of the federal government, you have a little more clout than when you're not, but you have to you have to use that very wisely.
Alan Fleischmann
I'm going back and forth a little bit here, but I am curious: are there skills that you learned as a very young David Kessler, at home or when you were at university later… Obviously, you’ve honed them. But when I think of you, I think of you as being one of the renaissance people I know. A renaissance man because you are able to play those different roles, because you have such great credentials. One of them is negotiation. You’ve been an author, a prolific author — by the way, we should talk about the books you've written. I think of you as a person of confidence with a great deal of humility. But to get to the place, where did that come from? And how early did you start to take those moments and experiment with them? You certainly have had great experiences that have honed those skills, but those skills had to start somewhere.
David Kessler
Yeah, I've wondered if that confidence in yourself comes from parents, if it comes from teachers. I think there's no doubt about that. But there is a difference… I will tell you about different experience. When I was appointed FDA commissioner, I didn't know President Bush Sr. I got to know him — a true gentleman, and very supportive, supported us on the food label. But what's different this time is, I had the really distinct privilege of getting to know the president. For eight months plus during the campaign, during that pandemic, when we were briefing him before this job. It’s a very special position when you're able to serve and you actually know the President.
Alan Fleischmann
In your case, you had the the burden of making sure he stayed healthy and safe during the campaign as well.
David Kessler
My job was to deliver him behind the gates. We were in charge of testing. I came within 13 feet of messing it up. And I would have never expected how. I remember the phone call. It was two o'clock in the morning, I got the phone call that President Trump had tested positive. And he was within 13 feet of him on the debate stage. And I will tell you, I had fought for every one of those feet. I came within 13 feet of messing up. And we had fought. We wanted to make sure that there was distance, but who would have ever thought that he would be standing next to someone positive? It was that close.
So there were moments that I remember well. There were some incidents on planes and others, there were some near misses. But we had to set up testing operations. We set them up in Delaware. There were really phenomenal teams that we had the privilege of working with. I will tell you, it’s a relief to have gotten him behind the fence and into the White House and then others could take care of him. My job just became getting vaccines into everyone else. That was my job.
Alan Fleischmann
It's just the logistics to get hundreds and hundreds of millions of people vaccinated. So tell me about the books you've written. How many books have you written, David?
David Kessler
I've written four books. I've edited one, but I've done four books. I did one book on the experience of our battle with the tobacco industry when we were at FDA. Two books on eating, obesity, and food. And one book really grew out of an interest from tobacco and those mechanisms that are involved in addiction, how they relate to mental health as well as tension. How we get captured by certain salient stimuli.
Alan Fleischmann
Your books have been very, very successful and important. In the wake of the pandemic, there's been a renewed focus, societally, on supporting and maintaining mental health and wellbeing, which has been a big part of your journey as well. What roles can leaders play in supporting the mental, emotional, and physical health of their teams and of their employees?
David Kessler
Boy, I think that's a profound, profound question. I think as we are beginning to emerge out of this —knock on wood, hopefully at least we'll get some breathing room — I think we are all changed. Because of the fact that we all work differently, I think we've all taken on different responsibilities. Some have lost loved ones. The number of deaths is still staggering, something we've not fully processed. There are an enormous number of needs, medical as well as psychological, that have been not attended to. People have been isolated. Kids have not been able to play with their friends and grow up normally. They’ve been behind masks, they're behind in reading. Profound, profound implications of this pandemic.
Just thinking about your question, you talk about our teams. I'm privileged, because I play with a team that is really extraordinary. I think it's fair to say we all like each other, we all work well. But it is a very seasoned team. These are individuals who have been through this multiple times in their career and have a degree of resilience. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in these kinds of positions. Even then, I have seen the stresses, the ups and downs. So I think that, in general, I'm more concerned about younger professionals who have not had that kind of seasoning, because I think there's a profound toll here.
Alan Fleischmann
Then the socializing part of work and life and community. Even for those who've had great experiences out and about before COVID, they're finding it challenging to reemerge. Extroverts discovered they may be more introverted than they thought, things like that. It’s definitely been slow going for many and lonely for some.
David Kessler
In some ways, I've not strayed very far over the last two years. I've gone into the White House, I've gone in when I have to have meetings, but I’ve been pretty 24/7 at my desk since the beginning, which is just very different than all prior jobs.
Alan Fleischmann
You have an extraordinary wife whom I know. When you talk to people with such extraordinary positions during this pandemic, you find out — Albert Bourla tells a story about his wife, Miriam, and his son, Moishe. No one realizes that when you're juggling all this stuff and living a very public life during the pandemic, you did not get out and go out and be with other people. So you had to have the ability to do it at home, which means that your loved ones became your colleagues. They had to help you juggle, make sure that you’re setup on Zoom, and sometimes — though in your case, obviously, so much is confidential — just passing along messages and keeping track of things. It wasn't like you had your team.
David Kessler
We’ve all been humbled. I think my major instruction has been, “could you please turn down the volume of those speakers?” I've been privileged with close to 50 years of marriage. But, for us, we've been through it all, running a government agency for seven years prior to that, taking out the tobacco industry. I mean, there are always these ups and downs you go through.
So it's interesting. There were times when cases were rising, there were times you sort of just didn’t quite believe Delta was going back up or then Omicron going back up. I can't believe it, you know, here we go again, there were those moments that really shook I think even the most seasoned of us. And I'm not sure we fully have had a chance to take a breath yet to really understand its effect on us.
Alan Fleischmann
And ongoing. When I look back on the pandemic over a century ago, the Spanish flu, it's stunning how so many people died. And yet, no one talked about it.
David Kessler
We've had to manage this. But again, we’ve had incredible resources and just been extremely fortunate. The people who've had to really be out in the trenches — I mean, yes, we had to orchestrate all these vaccines and drugs and drive it. But still, you can get food delivered.
My colleagues in the ICU and in the emergency room — you see pictures in the early months of this epidemic of our health care workers, who were were not protected. We didn't have vaccines at that point. It’s the doctors, the nurses, the people who are really frontline who really got us through this.
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing. It's a great example of optimism when you realize that you can't have these great, ambitious goals, and science can win. As a scientist, as a medical professional leader, it must be so gratifying.
For those in the private sector who are not necessarily in the science field, but have been dealing with the frontlines of figuring out how to produce during this period, what advice do you give them? Because when I think of you, David, I also think of you not just as a doc, which is what you describe yourself as, but also as somebody who has strong thoughts and vision about our greater societal challenges and opportunities. What would be the advice you would give if you had to have a magic wand today — knowing that a lot of our listeners are CEOs who are not necessarily in the pharmaceutical or science worlds, but are very much on the frontlines and care deeply about making capitalism work. What would you advise them about their leadership? I know it's a very general question, but I'd love to hear a little bit about your leadership lessons or leadership principles.
David Kessler
Yeah, I think that yes science won here. I think there's no question that science won. But there are limits to that science. And I think you have to be humble.
You know, we say follow the science. Yes, we'll make decisions based on the science, but in the end of the day, the science only will take us so far. Yes, the science will give us the methods. Yes, the science will help provide the protection in the form of vaccines and drugs. But when you look at the unknowns, that's the biggest challenge. The science only takes you so far. I mean, it's not perfect; it keeps on changing because our understanding is not perfect. The virus kept on changing and our understanding kept on changing, and there were times when things get said and people believe that's the science. And yes, there's scientific data that supports that, but the decision making is not perfect. It's humbling.
I think we have to be careful that we don't dress everything up in terms of the science, because there are a lot of times when we make policy calls that are the best we can do, but they may be wrong. Events may change, we may not see certain things. So I am much more humbled by the things we don't control. This is a virus that we didn’t control and we still don't control today.
Alan Fleischmann
And the humility to know that we just have to do everything we can to be able to fight it.
David Kessler
I mean, that was clear. The one thing we were going to do is, and I think we can say, from January 20 to this day, we threw everything at it that we had. The president gave us that ability, the American people, through their representatives to this day, gave us that ability. We didn't hold anything back.
We tried to bring everything we could because we didn't know exactly what would work. Right? You don't know the way you're gonna win. You don't know when the data is gonna come out. I'm waiting for results right now on kids’ vaccines. How is it going to turn out? But I think the one thing, certainly for the last 14 months, is that we've thrown everything at this. Whatever we possibly could and then more.
Alan Fleischmann
Does this make you optimistic? That we can imagine a cure for cancer, that we can imagine that so many of the diseases, that ail us could end up being part of our past?
David Kessler
Those things can happen. I mean, these are all complicated. They only can happen when there's a consensus to try to make it happen. And these are huge, huge challenges.
We've spent billions of dollars on one virus. Not the most complicated of viruses, but one that’s continued to mutate. And I think it worked. But that required a commitment and a coming together that I think is relatively rare during these times. Because you don't have that privilege of putting to bear those kinds of resources unless there's a coming together.
So, tell me what you want to do, and if everyone's on board in this town and broadly, then yeah, it can be done. There aren't many times that we get that privilege of everybody being exactly in the same place.
Alan Fleischmann
It would be great if we could treat so many other things in scientific and health world with the same urgency that we are treating this pandemic. Because we've obviously seen divides, but we've also seen collaboration. The government moved quickly, in ways that we have never seen the government do.
David Kessler
But still on something as basic as masks? Why did it have to be that way?
Alan Fleischmann
I mean, why did why did it have to be so difficult to get that out?
David Kessler
A 30 cent mask is a lot cheaper than a $2,000 antiviral. Everything is, do we have the ability? Do we have the humanity to be able to come together at those moments? And you know, that really was the privilege. Because once you got that, we were able to throw a lot at this.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there a book in you that you're contemplating in the future?
David Kessler
Let me get some sleep before we go to that.
Alan Fleischmann
Any last thought you'd like to leave for the listeners here, or more broadly to the American people and to those who are listening to the show, that you want them to take away from this today?
David Kessler
I think the effort worked. I think I think it shows that the effort started by the previous administration continued throughout. The support we got: unbalanced. Not everyone took this vaccine, and it'll be what it is. But the effort worked. And I think that there were thousands and thousands of lives saved because of it. So, sometimes what looks impossible can be done.
Alan Fleischmann
That's amazing. You're listening to Leadership Matters. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. We've had this wonderful hour with Dr. David Kessler, who’s an extraordinary public servant leader, renowned medical expert, and thank goodness, has been the Chief Science Officer for the White House COVID-19 Response Team. You continue to fight the fight for all of us. And you do in such a collaborative way with such humility. So on behalf of all the listeners of this show, I just want to say thank you, David, for all that you're doing. We're a lot healthier because of you and the colleagues that you work with every day, and we're very grateful.