Dave and Dina Powell McCormick
U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania
Vice Chairman, President of Global Client Services and Partner, BDT-MSD Partners
We hope everybody will ask themselves three questions: Who believed in you? Have you thanked them? And who can you believe in and invest in to change the world?
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan Fleischmann is joined by U.S. Senator Dave McCormick and business leader Dina Powell McCormick to discuss their NYT bestselling book, Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World. The conversation explores how mentorship shapes leadership, purpose and personal growth.
Drawing from their own experiences in public service, business and the military, Dave and Dina share powerful stories of resilience and the importance of humility in leadership. They also highlight the potential of national service to unite communities and foster civic responsibility. This episode encourages individuals to seek out mentors, become mentors and help build a culture of service and purpose.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World - by Dina Powell McCormick and Dave McCormick
Dina Powell McCormick and David McCormick on the Power of Mentorship
Superpower in Peril: A Battle Plan to Renew America - by Dave McCormick
Guest Bio
Dave McCormick
Senator David H. McCormick was born in Washington, Pennsylvania, and raised in Bloomsburg. The son of two lifelong teachers and prominent educators and the oldest of two boys, Dave was raised to understand the value of hard work. Growing up, Dave played football and wrestled, trimmed Christmas trees, delivered newspapers, and bused tables at the Magee Hotel.
Dave was nominated to the United States Military Academy by a Pennsylvania Senator, and became the first kid from Bloomsburg to attend West Point in decades. After graduating, Dave went on to serve in the 82nd Airborne Division as a paratrooper. He was deployed to the Middle East during the First Gulf War and following his service in Iraq he retired as a Captain.
After the Army, Dave earned his Ph.D. in international relations from Princeton University before moving to Pittsburgh to start a career in business. He worked his way up to become the CEO of FreeMarkets, a successful tech startup that employed hundreds in Western Pennsylvania.
In 2005, Dave was called to service again, this time in the highest levels of government, including as Under Secretary of Treasury and as Deputy National Security Advisor. For four years, Dave spearheaded the fight to protect American technology from Chinese theft, advised the President on key national security issues, and helped negotiate the global response to the 2008 financial crisis.
Following the administration, Dave joined Bridgewater Associates, one of the largest, most successful investment firms in the world, which manages the pension plans of groups including teachers, firefighters and law enforcement. He served as CEO until he resigned to run for Senate in Pennsylvania in 2022.
Dave and Dina are proud to support organizations that work with veterans and their families.
Dina Powell McCormick
Dina Powell McCormick is Vice Chairman & President of Global Client Services and a Partner of BDT-MSD.
Powell McCormick joined BDT & MSD Partners from The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc., where she was Global Head of Sovereign Business, focused on growing the franchise and broadening the firm’s network with some of the world’s most important institutional investors. She also held the role of Global Head of Sustainability and Inclusive Growth, playing an instrumental role in furthering the firm’s investment goal of advising and financing clients on climate finance investment opportunities, and served on the firm’s Management Committee and the Firmwide Client and Business Standards Committee.
Powell McCormick initially joined Goldman Sachs in 2007, and from 2007 to 2017, she served as Head of the firm’s Impact Investing Business and served in various roles during that period, including Head of the Urban Investment Group, President of the Goldman Sachs Foundation, and President of Goldman Sachs Gives. She led the development of Goldman Sachs’ inclusive growth initiatives, including 10,000 Women, 10,000 Small Businesses, and One Million Black Women — programs that have positively impacted the lives of tens of thousands of female entrepreneurs and small business owners around the world.
Earlier in her career, Powell McCormick served in the U.S. government for more than a dozen years, including as Assistant to the President for Presidential Personnel and Senior White House Advisor, as well as Assistant Secretary of State and Undersecretary for Public Affairs and Public Diplomacy. In 2017, she served as Deputy National Security Advisor.
She is currently Chairman of the Robin Hood Foundation Board, Trustee of the National Geographic Society Board, Trustee of the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, and a Member of the Boards of Meta and Exxon Mobil. Additionally, she is a member of the Stanford University Freeman Spogli School.
Together, Dina and Dave recently co-authored a deeply personal and inspiring NYT bestseller, Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World.
Clips from this Episode
Dina Powell McCormick details the impactful mentorship she received from Condoleezza Rice
Pennsylvania Senator Dave McCormick explains the importance of national public service
Pennsylvania Senator Dave McCormick on Governor Wes Moore and the impact of mentorship
Episode Transcript
Alan Fleischmann
Welcome to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann.
Today, I'm joined by two extraordinary leaders who each bring their own depth of experience across business, public service and civic life. Together, they are an incredible husband and wife duo focused on inspiring and mentoring the next generation—my very, very good friends, Dave and Dina Powell McCormick.
Dave is the United States Senator from Pennsylvania, a West Point graduate and the former CEO of Bridgewater Associates. As Senator from Pennsylvania, he is already showing leadership in every sense of the word. He's a seasoned leader who operates at the highest levels of private sector and civil society, and is big on national service.
Dina is a dynamic business leader—someone no one could ever say is less than original. She's an advocate with a distinguished track record across the private sector, public sector and civil society. She served in the George W. Bush administration and the first Trump administration. She's been a powerful voice for civic responsibility. She's a great board member of several significant boards, including Meta and ExxonMobil, and she's also been a civic leader as the chair of the Robin Hood Foundation. She's a woman leader, a leader who inspires others and she's all about the empowerment of those from marginalized communities.
Together, they recently co-authored a deeply personal and inspiring book, Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World. The book explores the role of values, mentorship and legacy in shaping who we become, and as leaders and parents, and as partners who should be in the next generation.
I'm honored to have them both with us today for a conversation about mentorship, leadership, partnership and the people who shape our paths. They're two of the most extraordinary people I know. They're my dear, dear friends, and we're going to have a very good hour together on Leadership Matters.
Dina Powell McCormick
Thank you, Alan!
Alan Fleischmann
Welcome. Welcome.
Dave McCormick
Thanks, Alan.
Alan Fleischmann
So before we dive in, you both have been on the show before separately. This is the first time we've had you together, which is very exciting. Hopefully, the first of many.
Tell us a little bit about the environments you both grew up in, how that shaped who you are today and how you lead. Both of you come from very different worlds, and people don't necessarily realize that, so it’d be great for you to share a little bit about your childhood.
Dina, your story starting in Cairo to get you to Texas and then to Washington. And then certainly, Dave, your growing up in Pennsylvania, and then West Point, the Gulf War and then to Washington and then beyond. I’d love to hear more.
Dina Powell McCormick
Great! Well, first of all, we're so honored to be on with you today. I just want to say from the beginning—God gives many blessings in life, but Dave and I count our friendship with you at the very top. It is a blessing to have you as a friend.
And I have to say, we know that Who Believed in You—we’re very honored it's a New York Times best-selling book—really wouldn't have happened without Alan Fleischmann. Dave, you and I have talked about this, because you really inspired us to tell the story of unsung heroes—that people had never really heard of—who created the leaders that are in this book.
You thought this could really start a movement of people believing that if they invested in one person, they could change the world. We have always believed that, I think partly because of our remarkable American dream lives that neither of us could have ever imagined we would be blessed to have.
As you said, I was born in Cairo, Egypt, in a small Coptic Christian community. My family immigrated to Dallas when I was five, and I always say I was young enough that I learned English fairly quickly—but Texan took me a lot longer. It was quite a culture shock.
My amazing parents worked really hard so their three girls could pursue their dreams. I grew up actually having parents and a grandmother who always said, “You can do anything you want to do.” My parents, though, had a little bit more design, I guess, on what they thought their girls’ lives should be. They were always saying, “We left our homeland and everything so you and your sisters could pursue your dreams and be anything you want to be, as long as you're a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer.”
After graduating from UT, I was heading to law school. I had waitressed in Austin to pay for college—the four years at UT—and worked as an intern in the State Senate. And I was definitely like, “Okay, I got into law school. I'm heading there,” when the first big mentor in my professional life came along, and that was Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison. I had never seen a female in such a high role in Texas. And she said, “Why don't you defer law school for one year, come and work with me, and you can come back to Texas. But you're talented, and I really think you should expand your horizons a little bit.”
And Alan, I was in awe. I couldn't believe that she would give me this opportunity, but when I told my parents it didn't go as planned. My dad actually, in his thick accent, said, “I don't even know why I left Egypt.” He just couldn't understand why I would not have gone to law school immediately, and worried that I would somehow veer off into this thing called politics that he didn't get.
I'll never forget her first words of advice: “Dina, if you don't take a risk on yourself, no one will ever take a risk on you.” She is a dear friend, and she's direct—that's the kind of mentor that you need. And obviously, I would have never come to Washington, had the honor of serving two presidents and eventually have the career I had at Goldman, where I worked with you on so many programs—from 10,000 Women to 1 Million Black Women.
So to go from immigrant girl in Dallas to have the honor and privilege of the opportunities that I've had—it's really only in America. I think that's something that we talk about in the book over and over again: the exceptional nature of our country.
And of course, Dave's story—not quite as exotic—started in rural Pennsylvania.
Dave McCormick
Not as exotic, that’s a good way to say it.
Alan Fleischmann
A little further away than Egypt.
Dina Powell McCormick
Little bit, yes.
Dave McCormick
Well, I love Dina’s story. It truly is the American dream, and you know, we’re a nation of immigrants. Here you saw Dina's dad have the courage to bring his two daughters, and eventually a third daughter, to Texas because he wanted them to have a chance, a shot, at the American dream.
Yeah, I grew up in rural Pennsylvania, as you know, Alan. My dad was a college president of a little state college in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, which is about 50 miles south of Scranton. It's this idyllic little town. I still have a family farm there—Dina and I do—and it's a great place to grow up.
I wasn't a great student. I played sports and wasn't that great at sports to begin with. The thing that really changed my life—which seems like a big thing to say—was that I wrestled and played football. As I got older, I got better at both.
My sophomore year in high school, I was riding the bench as a football player. I'd get put into the game at the end on the varsity team. If we were winning big or losing big—I played defense and I was number 43—I’d get pulled into the game and have a few minutes, usually.
That year, after my sophomore year, the coach got fired, and the new coach was hired. The new coach reviewed all the films of all the games, and he kept seeing this guy come in during the last couple minutes, who would hustle as much as he could, and make some big tackles.
So he called me. He had me come down to the school during the middle of the summer, and he said, “Listen, I've been watching film and I think you have a real possibility of making the team as the middle linebacker. And I'd like to have you really work on that, and if you work hard, I think you can win the position.”
So I went into football camp that summer, two weeks before school started, and I worked as hard as I could. At the end of the camp, to my absolute shock, I not only made the team, but he appointed me, along with two other guys, as a co-captain of the team as a junior.
When I say this was inconceivable to me, I mean it was inconceivable. It never even occurred to me that I had the right stuff to be the captain of the team, but he saw something in me. He saw leadership. He saw grit. He saw hard work, and that I would lead by example.
It turned out that really changed the course of my life. I ended up having a great football season, became an all-state linebacker and went on to wrestle—and place in the state tournament—and then went on to West Point. That football experience—I got recruited to play football at West Point and wrestle, I eventually just wrestled—changed everything.
It changed everything in terms of my path, but it also changed how I thought about myself.
I remember this moment where I was in the auditorium on the first day at West Point, and the superintendent gets up there and says, “How many people here were first in their class?” And there are a thousand kids and all these hands go up, and “How many people were president of their class?” All these hands go up. And he finally said, “How many people here were captain of the football team? And I put my hand up, and I remember thinking, I belong here. I've earned my place. So this guy, Coach Tom Lynn, made a huge difference. And I remember, it goes to one of the key lessons Dina and I had from the book, which is to make sure you thank your mentors.
I remember, ten years later being a soldier in Saudi Arabia, getting ready to cross over in the invasion of Iraq. We had a chance to write letters. We were out in the middle of the desert, and I wrote a letter to him, and I just said, “I just want you to know you changed everything. You made all the difference. You saw something in me that others didn't, including me.” And I sent him that letter, and thank God I sent him the letter because it wasn't long after that he died of cancer unexpectedly.
His son is a friend of mine now, and his son told me that letter was one of his prized possessions, just to know that he had made such a difference.
Alan Fleischmann
With this idea of gratitude—the key to me of great leaders and great leadership is the combination between confidence and humility. The key to getting humility and making sure we still have it by still remaining dogged and persistent, is gratitude.
I mean, you both just are so grateful for your family. You're so grateful for the mentors. You pinch yourselves. You don't get arrogant about all the extraordinary success that both of you have had in every corner, but it is amazing.
If I had to say two people I know in the world who don't take no for an answer—you guys are examples of it. Even your election, when it didn't go well the first time, many people would have walked away and said, “No, I'm not sticking with it.” But if there are mentors who said “you are enough” way back when, it’s probably that you are enough.
Dave McCormick
Well, Dina has a great riff on this, but I would just say—and for the young people that listen to this—failure is excruciatingly painful. Dina and I both have our fair share.
I got fired as the CEO of Bridgewater, and eventually came back and became the CEO again. And I lost this tough Senate race the first time. Those failures are often the necessary step on the path to success.
You really define yourself—your character, your grit, your will, your leadership—by how you deal with failure.
And in this book, Who Believed in You, we have these great case studies, as you know, Alan—just very prominent, famous people and extraordinarily successful. Everybody from Satya Nadella to H.R. McMaster to Condi Rice and Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and almost all of them have had failures.
So people should not mistake people being successful with the idea that those same people haven't failed. We all fail. And in many ways, failure is the greatest teacher of how to make the changes needed to succeed.
Dina Powell McCormick
We've been struck by how many people that chord has resonated with. I've had a lot of moms tell me, “I bought the book for my daughter or my son, and it looks like your careers went this way, kind of a straight line up, but the truth is, that's not the way it works. There are jagged lines and lots of steps back in everybody's career.”
And as Dave said, failure is usually the thing that happens right before success, because in the moment, it stings so much.
Alan, I've come to you when I've failed at things, and it stings so much, but you look back and you realize, if I hadn't gone through that I would have never known that I needed to change X, Y or Z about myself. I would have never gotten the next opportunity that came by that transformation.
We've been so honored by the events that people like you have hosted for us and the book. One of them was hosted by Mary Erdoes at J.P. Morgan, along with Jane Fraser, Jenny Johnson—all mentors of mine—Asahi Pompey, who's the president of the Goldman Sachs Foundation.
We had 400 women come to that event on Wall Street. I was overwhelmed by how important it was for those young women to hear all of us talk about our failures.
Mary Erdoes told an incredible story about how one of her bosses early on at J.P. Morgan came to her and said, “I think you don't realize, but that guy's not going anywhere, and you've got to learn to deal with him, whether you like him or not.” And it was sort of a light bulb moment for her—she thought she was hiding it, and it doesn't work that way. I think in particularly male-dominated industries and offices, it's so important to have male mentors who tell you those things and let women fail.
I remember my own story. I worked for Lloyd Blankfein, of course, for over a decade when he was the CEO at Goldman. He always used to say, “I'm glad you count me as your mentor, but I know I'm probably your tormentor. But it's out of love that I'm your tormentor.”
In addition to he and his wife being very close friends of ours, he would be the one that would say, “I'm going to give you the tough love you don't want to hear. And here it is.” If you think about how important that is in a mentor, there is nothing that is a greater gift than when somebody cares enough about you to have that conversation and give you that feedback to help you grow.
Alan Fleischmann
I love the fact that you're not afraid of—in fact, you encourage—tough mentors. In other words, as you said earlier, and I’ve heard you say before, “Those who really tell you what you don't want to hear are often the people you want to cherish the most,” and you get a thicker skin as well.
But also, the victories become sweeter when you go through some of those tough moments— whether it's a loss, a setback, a failure, or whether someone tells you something you don't want to hear. When you do get it right–
Dina Powell McCormick
Yes!
Alan Fleischmann
–It’s even more amazing.
Dina Powell McCormick
Those are the most important moments to have a mentor. That's why this is such a big part of the book.
Brian Grazer tells a story in the book about how he would have never made it in Hollywood if not for this woman who sat him down and really gave him some tough love. That changed the way he was pitching his scripts, and it transformed his life. So we have certainly seen that in everything that we've done, and it's what you should be as a mentor.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, 100%. And you guys are big, big mentors, but how did you pick the people in the book? I mean, I was there with you as you did. And when you look at the diversity and the incredible—I mean, really, truly, the greatest of diversity of people that you've chose well known, famous people who really spoke honestly and openly with you in a way you’ve never heard, and then people that you might not know about at all but when you read their story—it's pretty powerful. How did you go about figuring out who?
Dina Powell McCormick
Well, we are so lucky and blessed to have so many incredible friends. I mean, Dave knew Satya. I’ll let him tell his story.
Of course, I knew Wes Moore when he was a White House fellow and worked with me and Secretary Rice. It was fun because we talked to Wes and Sarah Huckabee Sanders, years before they even ran for governor, and hearing who their mentors were was so impactful in the book.
I'll tell you, one of my favorite stories is about Condi Rice. She is not only a dear friend of ours, but she was my boss when she was Secretary of State. There's a story that I share in the book with her that probably is one of the seminal moments of my life, Alan, in terms of watching and learning and growing.
It was after 9/11. She had become Secretary of State, and she and I had traveled to the Middle East. We went to a major capital in the region and entered one of those huge palaces, and we were meeting with the head of state. It was a tough time.
She greeted the head of state and he looked over at her and said, “Well, Madam Secretary, I'm glad that you have come, but I hope you didn't come here to preach to me about your democracy.”
And she looked at him without missing a beat, and in her fierce strength and poise, she said:
“Your Highness, how could I come and preach to you about my country when it wasn't all that long ago that my ancestors were counted as three-fifths of a man, but today you are looking at the first black female Secretary of State. America is not perfect, but it is on an imperfect journey to listening to the will of its people and being a true democracy. And you know what, Your Highness? You will never be as strong as us, because you are not on that same journey.”
In one fell swoop, if you will, she both, with humility and the recognition of our country, kind of made it clear that America is always going to be the most exceptional nation in the world, even though we have had dark chapters.
She taught me so much in that moment of grace and so to have had, obviously, the privilege of telling the stories of people that Dave and I saw firsthand—not only as mentors to us, but how in their tough times or their tough moments as leaders, how they behaved were the most invaluable lessons, certainly for me.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, the other lesson that she shared was not only that humility and that sense of imperfection—to try to make more perfect—she also shared a resolve that her voice mattered and that she should speak out.
I think a lot of what you guys are always mentoring others to do—and when you look up at the people you most admire, when I see the greater family of Dina and Dave, the people you most admire are the people that have the will and the courage to speak up and to speak out.
I guess that's the greatest gift of any mentor, is to kind of instill that dogged persistence that you're enough. Like you said, ‘when I said I'm the captain of the football team, I'm meant to be here,’ but also the responsibility to say ‘I'm meant to be here,’ and to lead in whatever form or fashion that is, speaking up is a form of leadership.
Dave McCormick
Yeah. We talked about the distinction between transactional mentorship, which is important. You know, we all do it. The son or daughter of your friend says, “Hey, can you write a letter? Can you nominate me? Can you help me get the job interview?” Something like that.
But the difference between that and something that we refer to as transformational mentorship is helping someone find their purpose, helping someone find the alignment of the way that their talents are best able to contribute and the things that are going to give them joy and a sense of real commitment to something bigger than themselves.
The thing that a mentor can do that is very hard to do yourself—even when you become much farther along in your career and much older—is to truly see yourself objectively the way others see you. A great mentor can help you see in a way that others can't, because they're focused on a relationship of openness, trust and honesty. They can help you see where you can make the biggest difference, where you can get the most fulfillment, and they can give you tough love.
That was Dina's point—great mentors give tough love. They tell you sometimes things you don't want to hear, but you've created a relationship of mutual trust and vulnerability, where you know that your mentor is speaking to you with your best interest in mind. That's a relationship that if you're lucky, you get a couple of those in your life.
Dina has been exceptional at being that for many people—dozens, maybe hundreds of people. We both benefited from a handful of people taking that kind of interest in us, and when you see it at work, it's very special. It's not just special for the mentee, it's special for the mentor as well.
A real sense of fulfillment, when you get a little further along, like we all are, is the recognition that maybe the biggest contribution you can make is helping others. It's not a job, it's a joy. It's something that you do out of the love of being able to help others.
Alan Fleischmann
I think it's one of the greatest things in the world, when you see others all of a sudden, getting it right—tackling big, big, audacious challenges and succeeding. And you can say to yourself, I remember when… when they didn't have that guts or that courage, or even that ambition. Or maybe they had the ambition but not the direction or confidence. And knowing that you played—even if a small role—you played a role in changing that. You can see that in your orbit. Both of you, it’s pretty amazing.
I also think every time you guys get a recognition of sorts—just recently, Dina, you were named among the most powerful women by Fortune. Dave, obviously, you won the United States Senate. You're getting one award after another in many cases. Both of you are being recognized all the time.
But somehow, whenever you respond to any of those moments, whether you’re chairman of this, or you get to be on top of that, or you know you're part of whatever you are professionally—you always talk with gratitude and talk with “we” as if this didn't happen on my own. And I don't know whether it’s just ingrained in you by a role model, or it's in your DNA, but it's a wonderful role model to have.
Dina Powell McCormick
It's having six daughters between us who are not impressed with anything we've ever done, and keep us extremely humble.
I've told you this story. Just this week, one of our daughters is interning at an organization, and they wanted to meet Senator McCormick. She literally was dumbfounded. She's like, “Why do you want to meet my dad?” So it keeps you humble. We're very proud of them, but I think that puts it in perspective.
The other fun thing—and you and I have talked about this—because your Talia is going to get to know our Ava at school next year. And this summer, we have lots of our friends’ children interning in the Senate. Yesterday was a very emotional opportunity, because we have Dan Senor’s son, Eli, and Dave took him to meet with hostage families that were in from Israel, extremely powerful. There's no way to describe that kind of mentoring, if you will.
And I had the chance, Alan, to introduce Eli Senor to Nir Bar Dea, the CEO of Bridgewater, who, of course, was very, very high ranking in the Israeli military in the IDF. And just to watch Eli hear Nir talk about his path, and he and his friend from school asked Nir—and they had asked Dave the same question—“Would you still do your military service over again, because didn't it take you off track for sort of five to six years you started later in your career?” And separately, both Dave and Nir said, “That is what made our life. That's what made our mission. That's what made us the people that we are today.”
And just to see their eyes widen, Alan—as young men who are about to launch their lives—and it can be one conversation. I think that one conversation with Nir might have just totally transformed the way those two young men were thinking about their paths.
Alan Fleischmann
That’s amazing.
When I think about both of you, you have always constructed—and I share this on the show often—the importance of constructing a life that includes public service, a community service, civil society service and being part of the private industry and private sector, if you can do it, if you're so lucky, because then you're really navigating power for good.
You both are the quintessential—I mean, you never stop. You've got your hands in all three, and you're working all the time in all three to make sure that you're helping others lead in civil society and public sector.
When I think, David, of our conversation that we've had about your love of national service—I've had conversations recently with several generals, including on this show, who really believe that America's greatest cure will be if we can create—not necessarily military service as a mandatory requirement—but some form of community service of some sort or national service.
I'm curious if that's still a passion for you, because I bring it up a lot.
Dave McCormick
It really is and it's born out of my own experience.
I think of all the things I've had the opportunity to do, the thing I'm most proud of—and the thing I think had the most profound influence on me—was my service in the military. I went to West Point, served for five years after that, and that opportunity is something that I think, for those who have served, brings out a special love of country and a special appreciation for the diversity of America.
In my platoon, in the 82nd, I had a young man who was from rural Alabama, I had an African American kid from Newark, I had a kid from Boston who was a college dropout from a somewhat well-to-do family and I had a platoon sergeant who was Puerto Rican—he was 35, I think, at the time when he was my platoon sergeant. I was 22. I remember thinking, This guy's ancient! And at the time, he was only 35.
The most amazing thing about that—whether deploying to Iraq or any of the time that I served with that unit—I never remember having a conversation about religion. I never remember having a conversation about race. I never remember having a conversation about political affiliation. We were just in it together. We were brothers with a mission of supporting our country's mission in the Middle East and also keeping one another safe.
That kind of binding experience transcends a lot of the polarization and nastiness we see in our society. There's lots of history and lots of data to show that even people who have served in Congress, who have that military background, are far more likely to find common ground than people who haven't served.
So I'm with you. I don't think it's practical that every person, every young person, would have to serve in the military, but I think national service of some form or another.
We had an experience with this in World War II with FDR. He had a number of programs to build the national parks and do all sorts of volunteer work. I think there's a real need for something like that, and there's been some controversy.
Many Republicans have been opposed to it because they worry, I think, appropriately, that this could become politically active—jobs, programs and things like that. But I'll just go back to William F. Buckley. The great conservative William F. Buckley wrote a book called Gratitude, and it's the gratitude about being an American. In that book, he had the line where he said, “It's a great privilege to be born an American.”
In fact, I mean, think about it, you're the 1% of the 1% of the world to be born in the greatest country, or to immigrate and become a citizen in the greatest country in the world. What a privilege.
But it's also a responsibility—a responsibility to do everything you can to keep it that way. I think national service helps solidify that responsibility on the part of all of us. To ensure that the America we love is not only maintained, but improved upon for the benefit of the next generation.
That's a solemn oath that I think we should all take.
Alan Fleischmann
Imagine when you bring people together who come from different lives, different communities, different thinking, as you said. The GI Bill proved that too, by the way—when people came back and all of a sudden they became part of the system—when you think how many people were grateful for that—but it creates a greater purpose and a greater community.
I come from Maryland, where we are the only state that requires 75 hours of community service to get a high school diploma, due to Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. It's still going on, and I imagine always—when you and I have had these long conversations about how we could create something of a national movement—it just has such powerful implementations, if done right.
Dina Powell McCormick
And it's all kinds of service, right? There's military service, there's public service, there's also philanthropic service. And Alan, you've been so dedicated to that. You help so many of your clients use their platforms and resources to have the most impact in the world.
When I think about our firm at BDT & MSD, we have some of the most important families and founders—most significant around the world. And so much of our conversations with them are really thinking beyond, yes, of course, their investment strategy, and yes, of course, kind of succession and how they're thinking about that. But what are they doing to have impact?
We're really proud of Michael and Susan Dell, Byron and Tina Trott, who just made the Forbes philanthropic top list. What's amazing about that is—it actually takes a lot to figure out how to effectively give money away and how to effectively invest in communities.
And again, you and I have worked on big programs that have done that, but I think instilling in family foundations, in families, the importance of service, we certainly hope, by example, we're doing that with our daughters.
But I actually think you have to be more planned and thoughtful. You have to really think about: What is my unique set of access, convening power—me as a family, me as a company, me as a person—that can really have an impact in the world? And part of your life having service, obviously it's been the most meaningful part for me and Dave.
The other thing I'll say is, I think today, our worlds are so overlapping, if you will. It used to be there was the public sector and the private sector. And of course, today, whether you're in the corporate world, government, philanthropic world, or academia, you kind of have to understand the other sectors—whether you're regulated by them, or you get grants from them, or, you know, whatever it may be.
So I also think that one of the things that we hope emerges from the book—and you'll notice how many people we talk to that have lived their lives this way—is that there should be different chapters in your life.
Christine Lagarde became one of the first female partners of a law firm at Baker McKenzie in Paris, she was one of the biggest rock stars in corporate, well in the world, and yet, look at her life, that then also added so many chapters of public service, from course, the IMF and the ECB, and who knows, we hope might be one day President of France.
So I think also just early in people's lives, recognizing that nobody works at one company for 50 Years anymore, right? So having those different chapters in your life in different sectors very purposely…is a lesson that we hope both by example but by the stories in the book that we share.
Alan Fleischmann
Were there any big surprises in the book? Several people you had in the book you knew, and then were there moments where you're like, I had no idea you went through that, or I had no idea that you experienced that in life?
Dina Powell McCormick
The biggest surprise was how many people, as Dave said, regretted that they had not thanked their mentors or publicly thanked them.
Christine was one of them. There was a woman that had really plucked her out early in her career, and she said, “I never really had a chance to thank her.”
So Alan, we ask everybody that we hope will read the book, if you go to whobelievedinyou.com you can order the book. One of the things that we kind of realized, we hope everybody will ask themselves three questions: Who believed in you? Have you thanked them? And who can you believe in and invest in to change the world?\
Alan Fleischmann
Those are big questions to ask. And the humility thing, I do that with my daughters. You know, I'll do something or have the show, and I'll say, “Did you hear that episode?” And they didn't. They didn't even want to listen to it. Have your six girls read the book?
Dina Powell McCormick
They have—basically by audio, because we've practically read every chapter to them, and they've kind of known the stories. They've come, of course, also to many of the events we've had.
The one I wish they had come to was at West Point. We actually went, and we were so honored—Vinnie Viola, one of Dave's fellow graduates from West Point, bought every single cadet a book. He bought every single one of them, a copy of Who Believed in You. We did a beautiful panel there with about, I don't know, 1,500-1,700 cadets at West Point.
The inspiring thing, when you're the mother of six daughters jointly, is to see those young women cadets. I mean, I was so wowed. I actually said to Dave, “Looking at this audience, engaging with all these young men and women, gives me peace that our nation is going to be secure for another generation,” because there are these extraordinary people who protect the freedoms that we have in our country.
So we've had the privilege of taking the girls every year to the Army-Navy game, and they've met a lot of people in the book, so they're very fortunate that way. Dave might have an answer to that, but I want to ask you something.
Can I flip this on the moderator?
Alan Fleischmann
Yes.
Dina Powell McCormick
Alan Fleischmann, who believed in you?
Alan Fleischmann
I've had great mentors in my life, but my parents were amazing. My mother, who died young, was a great force in life. She was a person who believed in me, and she was the toughest mentor.
If I ever tried to find an escape hatch of any kind, she always jumped in and wanted to figure out where that fear was coming from and overcome that fear. I had been president of my class every year in college, and when I decided that I was not going to run for president of the university, she sensed in me that I was afraid of losing that election. And rather than saying, I understand the rationale, she looked at me and said, “What are you afraid of?” And she always asked me that question, “What are you afraid of?”
Dina Powell McCormick
Wow.
Alan Fleischmann
That was inspiring.
Dina Powell McCormick
President Fleischmann. President Fleischmann has a nice ring to it, Dave.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, there you go.
I had a teacher in high school. My mother had cancer, and I decided when I was in eighth grade, I didn't need school anymore. And just literally eighth grade was the year that I decided I'm abandoning all this, none of this matters. I took it very seriously.
I had this one great teacher who decided that he was going to take this wild horse of a kid and make him his own. I spent the next four years in high school wanting to do the best, because this one guy—this one extraordinary old-fashioned dude—put his hand on my shoulder and said, in a sense, I believe in you, and I think he changed my life.
Dina Powell McCormick
Wow.
Alan Fleischmann
In my house, you would see a picture of him. In my office, there’s a picture of him. I did get to see him later on in life, where he was an older man going back to football games. I went to see him, and his son said he was way along in life and he won't recognize you anymore. I held his hand, and he looked at me. He remembered me, and he remembered my family and my parents. I was very touched. He came back.
Dina Powell McCormick
Oh my gosh, that’s amazing.
Alan Fleischmann
When I look at the two of you—and I remember that day very well in Westport, we were talking about it—I actually do believe that if there ever was a need in our country for a movement, it should be around mentorship. I do believe that you both instill that in every human being you meet—that you care.
And you don't just kind of ask questions out of curiosity only—although you have to be curious to be a mentor—but you go deeper. You challenge people. I know people who've walked away feeling like, “Oh my gosh,” with both of you. You know, you're not afraid to tell the truth, as you see the truth, which can be with a big hug, but a hug that hurts sometimes because it's not what you want to hear.
And I honestly think that if everybody took that to the point of caring the way you two care and the way you're instilling it by telling like you did—everybody kind of goes back and thanks their mentor—but find another to be a mentor to, we can change the whole world.
We change the country first, but then change the whole world, right? And I think your book became a best-seller faster than any book I've ever seen.
Dave McCormick
We’re trying, Alan. I’m almost embarrassed to say it—when we first had this conversation—but there are norms in society, and the norms vary by country. And you know, I think we mentioned in the book, but in Confucian society, for example, there's this huge tradition of having your parents later in life, move back in the home with you. And you take care of your parents to the end. This is a norm of mentorship, and the notion of paying it forward, that is absolutely an opportunity that's available to everybody.
The key message of the book is—and the reason the chapters are organized around these very famous, prominent people, but the book is not about the famous, prominent people—about the people you've never heard of, who made the prominent, famous people that have had such impact, who they are.
That's the notion here. Every single person. I would say mentorship—people think it's unselfish, I think it's selfish in the sense that it's hard to imagine something that's more personally fulfilling than knowing that your intervention, your involvement, your support, your mentorship, for someone really helped them make a meaningful difference in their lives and in the world.
We really do hope—in the most humble way possible—that this book can continue to build momentum in a way that it does facilitate and encourage more of a movement around mentorship.
And we've got a lot of work to do on that, but I will say the people who have read it, who have come back to us and say, “Oh my God, this touched me. It's made me think. I've written a letter. I've called. I'm now thinking about who I mentor.” That's exactly what we had hoped for.
Alan Fleischmann
This show is about leadership and how leadership matters. And what I love about the book—and I've had several people tell me this in their own way—is that it makes you realize, you don't have to be the CEO of Bridgewater, you don't have to be the United States senator to make an enormous difference. You don't have to be one of the most powerful women.
In other words, you don't have to have these titles in government or in private life in order for you to see yourself as a leader. And then, a mentor is a very important part of leadership and legacy and sometimes impact.
I saw that with my own dad in World War II. He did amazing things in World War II and never made it sound like it was an ego moment. He just did things that were great and courageous, and then did it because everyone was doing it; therefore, everyone should do it well.
When I think of the mentees that you both have, and those who are now reading your book and leading. They are leading, it'd be great to have a society where people know leading is making a difference in other people's lives, even if they don't look like me, sound like me, or have the same background as I do. What an incredible community we're building.
That's part of your goal here, right? Your goal here is to not go after the brass ring necessarily, the big title, but to go after your role and responsibility in your everyday life.
Dina Powell McCormick
Definitely. Honestly, I think there is a feeling sometimes of helplessness, and what can I really do to change the world? And what you realize in reading the book is: there would have never been Condi Rice, as we know, without a professor at the University of Denver who saw something in her and said, “I think this should be your career. You are really smart. National security should be your career.” And she would never have thought that. She thought she was going to be a classical pianist.
And of course, Alan—as you and I know—that professor was Joseph Corbell, who was Madeleine
Albright's Dad. And of course, Secretary Albright was a very close friend of yours. What did he say? He said, “I had two daughters that were secretaries of state.”
Alan Fleischmann
He felt totally that he inspired the two women to be Secretary of State, two of the most extraordinary Secretaries of State. And that was his legacy. His greatest legacy of all.
Dina Powell McCormick
Yeah, and the book is filled with high school coaches like Dave's and teachers. Anybody truly that just invests in somebody and sees that potential.
Eric Motley is in our book. You know, Eric, of course, it took a whole village, if you will, in Madison Park, Alabama, we wouldn't have the extraordinary Dr. Eric Motley.
Walter Isaacson never thought about being a writer. He tells the story in our book about—what's the gentleman's name, Dave?—that very famous New Orleans writer, and he one day went fishing with him. The next thing you know, Walter said, “You mean writing is a profession? I only know lawyers and doctors. I didn't know that was a profession.” And we wouldn't have had Walter Isaacson.
So, taking the time to invest in somebody can truly transform not just your life—as Dave said—but it can help all of us, because you helped find somebody's purpose. I really believe we are all on this Earth to find God's purpose for our life, whatever your faith is. And so the joy and blessing of helping somebody find their purpose is pretty, pretty extraordinary.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, your story does that. Walker Percy is who you're thinking of—the person for Walter.
I love that story because it also shows the randomness of the moment also, when you mentor. It doesn't have to be the scheduled appointment at three o'clock on Thursday, let me mentor you.
It could be the serendipitous moment where you're walking with somebody, or you're having a conversation like you just did with not only Eli Senor, but his friends. Eli's friend got to be mentored through that relationship you have with Eli and his parents.
In other words, take that responsibility, that it doesn't have to be always so official in order for you to make a difference in someone's life. It does pay forward.
Dina Powell McCormick
I'm so glad you brought that up. I think one of the other important lessons we want to drive home to the people who want to find mentors is to be mentorable. What we mean by that is—be realistic about the person's time. It's really basic stuff that I tell people that ask me, “How do I get a great mentor?”
Sheryl Sandberg and Condi Rice and Marne Levine and Juliet deBaubigny hosted a beautiful event at Stanford for the book. Sheryl and I were talking about how much we really want to help women in our orbit. And of course, she wrote Lean In and had a huge impact.
But one of the things we talked about was, please don't send me a three-page email. I'm never going to get through that. But instead say, “I really want your advice. Should I do this internship? Would you consider recommending me for it? Is it a good idea for me?” “By the way, if I write the letter and you can edit it.” Be mentorable, for people who are so busy, who really want to help.
You need me to be a reference? Great. Tell the person to call me. Give me the four bullets.
The most important thing if you really want to have a mentor that changes your life: be open to feedback. Be open to feedback. You have to actually have a trusting relationship.
We did that survey with Yale, and what we learned in the survey is, the most important thing that Dave said, transformational, not transactional. And the transformational part is, can you be there when I fail? Can you tell me the tough love? I really need that consistent feedback, and I'm going to take it well. That's another big part of being mentorable, is taking that feedback well.
Alan Fleischmann
Really understanding your own ego. You said something at one of the events you went to for the book. I was there, and I was very struck by—there is a bit of a generational challenge in some ways, because some people want feedback, but they don't really. They say they want feedback. They you're my mentor, but they use the word too lightly, and they don't realize that.
When I was young, I actually created my own board in my mind. I just would have a board of directors. Even in their 80s, some of those people are still actively my board members. I had David Rockefeller, Morris Offit, there are people in my life that just played such a good role, and they knew that. Even Barbara Jordan, they knew that they were they were board members of mine, and they knew I took it seriously. I asked them questions like you just described a minute ago, that worked for them. Their time was precious. I respected their time.
You said something, at one of the things I went to in Washington, where you spoke, where you were kind of implying doing it fakely, doing it superficially is not what we're talking about. If you want someone to be a mentor, make it real. If you're going to want to be mentored, make sure you're prepared to really be mentored.
Dina Powell McCormick
Well, somebody's giving you their most precious commodity, their time and their care and their respect for you. And so, A) treating it with the respect that it deserves. And B) I know how strategic in a good way you are with people's time, and you really do have to say, “Okay, what is this particular person able to mentor me on? And how can I get the most out of it? Because I want it to be meaningful for them as well.”
Alan Fleischmann
And what would you say to the unexpected audience here? In many ways, you brought them up, the mentors. It may make a lot of parents realize that their role is not just to be a parent, but to be a mentor parent.
I've heard that now from several people who have read the book that it changed the way they look at parenting. I've heard it from people who think, Okay, I'm your boss, and I'm now going to now treat you differently, more like a mentor, boss, more like a parent mentor.
I'm just curious if you've seen that in those who've read the book or take it in.
Dina Powell McCormick
I have, and you know what? Parents who have talked to me have realized that maybe one of their most important goals is to find and help their child find the mentors. Because being a parent is kind of a different thing, right? We all, of course, wouldn't be where we are without our parents. But that's probably a big thing I've watched a lot of my friends do is say, “I'm going to kind of hand-pick who I hope at least my son or daughter has exposure to.”
Dave McCormick
Some people, as you mentioned, refer to their parents as great mentors, and had a relationship with their parents where it was a great mentor. But a lot of us struggle, and I certainly struggle to be a great mentor to my children, because it's harder. You want different things for them. It's hard for you to be objective about them. And one of the people in the book, who is profiled, is Wes Moore.
Wes lost his father early on in his life, and his mom was relentless, relentless. And Wes started off in—got in a lot of trouble, went to the Valley Forge Military Academy. She went up—it's in the chapter about him, and he tells the story, it’s very funny—and she saw an African American, a cadet who was a few years older than Wes, who was in charge in the cadet hierarchy, he was an officer. She went up to that young man and said, “I'm going to volunteer you. You're going to be my son's mentor.”
And sure enough, this young man took that on and became one of many over the years that Wes had, including Geoff Canada, who you know. And this young man is a friend of Wes to this day, and his mom volunteered that young man, he was going to be a mentor. And sure enough, he became a mentor.
So you know, every family has to figure it out for themselves. But I think a great role that parents can play is not necessarily being the mentors, but helping their sons or daughters be introduced to people who can naturally become their mentors. You can't be forced. You can't force it. That's the one thing we've seen over and over again. You can't force these mentoring relationships. They have to come somewhat organically, but boy, you if you're a parent, I've got one daughter now who's involved in marine biology, and one of the really famous, prominent marine biologists in the world has taken her on as a mentor, and it's truly changed her life.
Alan Fleischmann
And she's the one that didn't come to the swearing in because she was so busy and she could break away because she was the middle of incredible work, which blew me away. Am I right?
Yeah, but it would just show that she understood and respected the power of that work. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. And I was very impressed by that. I think your message is actually very powerful, and we should encourage people to also take advantage of the fact that someone wants to mentor them, like if you're a parent, and you want to tell your kid to meet that person, that they should say yes. If you're a boss and you want someone to meet you should say yes. If you're a community leader, they should say yes that they want to meet that person. There's a reason why Dave is recommending it, or Dina is recommending it.
Dina Powell McCormick
Right, definitely.
Alan Fleischmann
That's very, very cool. Is there a book in both of you to do it again? I know that was not an easy experience. Two busy people writing a book together who happened to be married and have very strong opinions. I know you joke about it, but is there another book in you?
Dave McCormick
Well, we lived through COVID with our six daughters. We lived through blending our family. We lived through losing a campaign. We lived through a winning campaign. Writing a book together was the Mount Everest of marital challenges.
Dina Powell McCormick
And sadly Alan you saw that every step of the way.
Dave McCormick
We survived it in tact.
Alan Fleischmann
It inspired me.
Dina Powell McCormick
Well, you and Dafna work so well together actually.
Dave McCormick
In some ways, Dina and I, we worked well together. But I would say the best part about the collaboration is super complimentary. The things I'm good at are not her strengths, and the things she's good at, and there's a lot of things she's incredibly good at, are not my strengths. And so I think the project is much better. The book's much better because it was from two of us. If either of us had wrote it separately, I don't think it would have been nearly as good. So, you know.
Dina Powell McCormick
Well, I don’t want to brag but which book was a New York Times bestseller?
Alan Fleischmann
And the fastest? I told you, I've said it before, and I said it here, the fastest. I've never seen a book become a New York Times bestseller faster. It was awesome.
Dina Powell McCormick
Thank you. We were really honored, really honored, because the most amazing thing, and obviously we're so proud that all the proceeds are going to veterans organizations and mentoring organizations. But the thing that we were so proud of is that, you know, it resonated, so we're really humbled by that.
Alan Fleischmann
Is there an organization, organizations that you would also recommend for someone who may be just a little shy of being a mentor, but would like to give back and serve in some form or fashion?
Dina Powell McCormick
iMentor, which is, of course, our dear friends, John and Amy Griffin, started years ago, and it's an incredible program, and it uses technology so effectively to pair mentors and mentees together. And so many of the amazing veterans organizations you know, Jake Woods organization, mentoring is so central to that at West Point, that Dina connects a lot of cadets with amazing people.
Alan Fleischmann
Exciting. I know we're getting close now to time, and I want to just say I knew this was gonna go by too fast for me, because I love being with you guys, and the fact that I got you for an hour is just such a joy.
You've been listening to Leadership Matters on SiriusXM and at leadershipmattersshow.com. I'm your host, Alan Fleischman, and I'm here with Dave and Dina McCormick. We've had an hour with Dave McCormick, the United States Senator from Pennsylvania, and Dina Powell McCormick, Vice Chair and President of Global Client Services and a partner at MDT&MSD, among many other formidable titles in both their cases. We discussed their extraordinary book and I want each and every person to buy it and to share it. Buy copies of it. It's called, Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World, and it does. Thank you both to my favorite people in the world, and I hope you come back soon.
Dave McCormick
Thanks, Alan, for having us.
Dina Powell McCormick
Thank you, Alan, what an honor to be on with you. And again, thank you for helping make Who Believed in You a reality. It wouldn't have happened without you. You're a wonderful friend.
Alan Fleischmann
Thank you both big time. Talk to you soon.