Brian Stafford
CEO of Diligent
“If you're able to [be] fortunate enough to take a step back and say, what's the organization we want to build over the next five to 10 years?... you will realize that in order to create a big, profitable, thriving organization, that the only way to do that is to invest in the communities where you operate.”
Summary
In this episode of Leadership Matters, Alan and his good friend Brian Stafford discuss what makes someone a successful leader, including looking at the long-term and investing in the communities around you.
They discuss how Brian grew up immigrant parents who worked hard to create a middle class living despite their lack of wealth. His parents expected the same work ethic from Brian, expecting him to have perfect grades and to work hard. This taught Brian to always look at what he can be doing better rather than celebrate his wins.
Brian found his “wings” by moving to Pennsylvania for college. From this independence he started his own business, and then decided to join established companies to get a new perspective. Currently, Brian is the CEO of Diligent, the world’s largest GRC SaaS provider with more than $500M in revenue.
Mentions & Resources in this Episode
Diligent is a modern governance company that is the only comprehensive governance software provider featuring tools to improve and simplify modern day governance.
Modern Leadership is an initiative by Brian Stafford that focuses on diverse leadership.
George Floyd is an African American man who was killed by police. His killing has become the subject of worldwide Black Lives Matter protests.
Guest Bio
Brian Stafford is Chief Executive Officer of Diligent Corporation. He assumed the role of CEO in March 2015 and is responsible for all day-to-day operations, with a focus on accelerating global growth and incorporating scale into the business in order to seamlessly manage the growth.
Brian previously served as a Partner at McKinsey & Company, where he founded and led their Growth Stage Tech Practice. While there, he concentrated on helping Growth Stage Technology companies scale faster and did extensive work with Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) companies, focusing on growth strategy, sales operations and strategy, pricing, international growth strategy and team building. Prior to his tenure at McKinsey, Brian was the Founder, President and CEO of CarOrder, a division of Trilogy Software based in Austin, Texas.
Brian holds a Master’s Degree in Computer Science from the University of Chicago and a BS in Economics from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania.
Follow Brian on Instagram, Twitter, or LinkedIn.
Clips from this Episode
On partnerships and Diligent's "Modern Leadership Initiative"
“Corporate leaders need to take a long-term view of what success means.”
On the purpose and goal of Diligent's "Modern Leadership Initiative"
Episode Transcription
Alan Fleischmann
You're listening to Leadership Matters on Sirius XM. I'm your host Alan Fleischmann. I'm here today with a good friend, Brian Stafford, the CEO of Diligent, we'll be talking about quite a few initiatives of how the world has changed around board governance and frankly the way corporation, the need to navigate in the new world order. A year ago in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, Bryan Stafford was thinking about how to affect meaningful change as the CEO of Diligent, the world's largest governance software company. He also knew he wasn't alone. He knew corporate leaders nationwide, were grappling with issues of equality, social justice, and the role of the business community. In particular, they were fixated on the question, how to business leaders walk the walk, and not just talk the talk and respond to this question, Brian launched the Modern Leadership Initiative. Over the course of a few days and only a few days, he and the engineers at dilligent assembled a program to help diversify corporate boardrooms, matching companies with qualified minority candidates. And they're doing it all for free. Modern leadership has grown rapidly over the course of the last year, and is by far the Lowe's largest company of its kind. Brian has also excelled as a corporate leader in his own right, he's led diligence through a stunning growth story from a valuation of less than $600 million when he became CEO in 2015, to one that is north of $7 billion. Today, I'm thrilled to have Brian on the show today, we're going to talk about all of this and more. Brian, welcome to Leadership Matters.
Brian Stafford
Thanks so much, Alan, excited to be here. And, and having this conversation with you. Me too.
Alan Fleischmann
Let's start with a moment last summer. And I remember this very well with you. When you launched Modern Leadership, it to me it was one of the most stunning examples of a CEO stepping up. And a very authentic way. And I'd love to have the the our listeners hear the story. Because what you did in essence, as you watched a few black leaders talking about the lack of diversity on the, you know, actually in companies all around, but also in just across the board when it comes to leadership. And you realize you've got 700,000 users, 90,000 companies and on your platform that you are the company when it comes to governance and boards and you say, wait a minute, I can do something here. What I loved about this as you realize it, but what is most amazing to be buying is it was a matter of days before you launched it, it wasn't like you let you went into a task forces of that study. It knew like, let's do something and you did it quickly. Tell us a little bit about that.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly right. Alan, I remember I remember very well, like it was yesterday, you know, in the aftermath of the of the killing of George Floyd, you know, I did what, what many leaders do where first you look internally, and you say, you know, shoots? What are the things that I'm doing that I can control that can help make the world a little bit of a better place, and in particular, help unwind some of the unbelievable complexity and, and challenges was that systemic racism in the US? And so we did a bunch of things within diligence saying, How can we be a better organization for our colleagues? How can we be a magnet for talent? How can we make sure that that we function better from a diversity, equity inclusion perspective, you can always be better and there are there things internally that we launched and did that I know are making Diligent better. But then, on the other hand, said, Well, look, is there something that we can do using the platform that we have to help to enact change and help to create more opportunity and help to level the playing field a little bit more? And to your point, Alan, I remember I was listening to a very impactful hour of television on CNBC One morning, and it was Ken Frazier from Merck, Wes Moore, who at the time was at Robin Hood. And then Mellody Hobson is a great investor and now the chairwoman at Starbucks. And each one of them were talking through some of the challenges with systemic racism in the US, and how each one was tackling a different part of how we can help to solve it or or begin to solve things and make make things more equal. And Melodie just struck an interesting tone where she said, Look, if we're going to make changes, the changes need to happen at the top, the changes need to happen in corporate boards and in the C suite. And you know, a light just you know, a light bulb just went off kind of moment or probably didn't realize that much sooner. But the reality is a diligent we work with 23,000 companies around the world and help to provide governance software for them. And what that means is more than 700,000, board members, CEOs and CFOs use our application on a weekly or monthly basis. And the the obvious thought came to my head that I'm sure many other people would have would have connected the dots on much sooner. But how do we activate that network to help the create more opportunity for diversity on boards? You know, and melody, in that interview described, it incredibly clearly said, Look, we've started to move the needle on diversity, gender diversity, and boards. But if we actually look at racial diversity on boards, we're nowhere we haven't made any real progress. And so we started out and decided to activate our network and said, of our 700,000 board members, we gave every single one of our public company board members two invitations to nominate people who they thought should be on boards today, but are not and people who are racially diverse. And we, we offered up all of our clients the ability to post open board roles in our application all as you noted for free, we recruited some 20 plus private equity firms, who each agreed to create five new board opportunities across their companies for racially diverse board members. So I think across all them was 120 plus opportunities. And then we partnered with Spencer Stewart, Heidrick and struggles Egon zehnder to actually create and put all their board roles all within our application. And so what we did in, as you mentioned, very, very short order and a lot of a lot of late nights with with the team, we created basically a marketplace for diverse talent, for diverse talent for boards, and C suite roles all within the diligent application. And as you noted, all completely fray. And we've had more than 5000 unbelievably talented people put forward as part of our program, and created numerous board opportunities through the application. It's a start, we can do much more though no one at Diligent is declaring victory. And I think now the platform has momentum around the idea that you can go to to diligence, you can go to the page, you know, highlight around modern leadership, and in gray, more opportunities, I think we can take that and actually now go and expand it much more and haven't get to scale. And so it's very, very exciting. And we hope to play our role over the next 234 years at go back to Mellody Hobson point actually moving the needle needle on racial diversity on boards.
Alan Fleischmann
What is so amazing is it is around scale, it's also a real partnership. When you think about the 20, private equity firms, you say, Wow, many ways we're giving them a gift, a vehicle for them to actually be part of the same conversation and show results by being a partner with diligence upon our leadership. And then the transparency part was big.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, the transparency part was big. And what we also partner with a ton of different unbelievably talented organizations, whether it's the ELC, Latino Corporate Directors Association, where people had awesome groups and members of people where where we thought, how do we actually connect everyone together. And the one requirement we had to your point was, it was not exclusive. Anybody who wanted to be our sole partner, that wasn't the point. The point is to actually make this the super exclusive club, which is the C suite and the board more inclusive. And so we took all all fees off the table, there's no revenue model, the got the goal was just to partner with as many organizations as you noted, and make the organ make the the initiative as inclusive as possible.
Alan Fleischmann
And then began to transparency part, which is basically because when you think about one of the reasons why people have excuses around they can do this on the wards or we know that we're a bottleneck that we try believe there's no pipeline and you know is is they can kind of hide behind the the opaqueness of the process. And what's amazing about this, and I do think you don't see movements that are launched in the private sector the way this became or has become and you know, be part of that is also you kind of lifted the veil and said, let's make this be very transparent and, and be really, you know, authentic about this. If we really want to make a difference. This is joining. They don't want to be different. don't join. But yeah-
Brian Stafford
Our goal is to make it as easy as possible for people to do the right thing and recruit.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah.
Brian Stafford
That was the goal of it and people make whatever choices they want, but hopefully they will say they won't say they couldn't add diversity to board because they couldn't find someone qualified. There are 1000s of qualified people we all know. And now there's 1000s of those qualified people 10s of 1000s within our application for people to go and find whoever is the right expert to add to their board or, or leadership team roles.
Alan Fleischmann
You know what I love about this also, and I know you've been active with the World Economic Forum, increasingly, we've had Klaus Schwab here on the show, the founder, and Chairman, you know, this idea of stakeholder capitalism, we talked a lot about, and I think we talked a lot about it more last year than we ever did before. Because people are looking for a new kind of capitalism, you know, you're harnessing power and diligence, in a way, by doing what you're doing modern leadership in particular, that actually says, Okay, if we're going to be good corporate citizens, let's do it. Right. And, you know, using this power that you you actually have on this 700,000 users is a pretty powerful number.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, I like I obviously completely agree, we, we do believe that we're entering a new phase in the way organizations are managed, and think about what success ultimately is, and they're looking at definitions of success that are beyond just profit. And, you know, that's the notion behind stakeholder capitalism. And, and, and I think you'll, you've seen, probably, the world has over rotated too much towards profit. And we're in a phase now, where people are rotating more between more towards not just profit, revenue, growth, etc, but also the impact that you have on your status. And the opportunity for that, and, you know, and, and we, our aim is to help our aim is to be an authentic organization, to act in act in a way where we are supportive of all of our stakeholders, but also help other companies go through the journey of their own. That's kind of what, you know, our governance risk and compliance suite of offerings do. And and there's just a huge opportunity to do that. for the, for the, for the naysayers, who might be listening, that says, look, you know, ultimately, how profitable a company is, over time, actually, you know, is a reflection of its value, I would totally agree, I would not dismiss that notion, I think where I would like to see the world go or push is for many of our corporate leaders to really take a long term view on what success means. Because I think I think we all get caught up in the quarterly, you know, beat and raise your numbers or your targets. And that, unfortunately, creates a very short term flywheel perspective. And I think if you're able to, I'm fortunate enough to take a step back and say, what's the organization we want to build over the next five to 10 years, you will realize that in order to create a big, profitable, thriving organization, that the only way to do that is to invest in the communities where you operate in is to take a long term view of resources and and your, the week that you pull behind and in whatever business that you operate, that you think about the workforce of the future, and how can you actually make sure that you recruit people who want to work for an organization who wants to do wants to do more wants to do better? And to actually think those are, I think you can actually achieve both of those notions, it just takes a little bit of long term thinking and perspective and focus, to not not sub optimize near term, but really build something for for long term, long term value in the value of your stakeholders.
Alan Fleischmann
And do you think that that has also reinforced the purpose and mission of Diligent because I candidly, you know, people refer to you as a, you know, as a leading technology software company. But honestly, when I see what Diligent does, in an action, it's about people, you know, that it's the technology is a tool, or tools, and you've got a menu of tools that you're giving people who have power in order for them to, you know, be more effective, more efficient, and more ambitious as part of its stakeholder capitalism and more ambitious with all the stakeholders they need to reach. But, you know, do you think it's actually it's this whole last year is accelerated the need for what Diligent does around board governance?
Brian Stafford
You know, we, we are very fortunate lucky to have phenomenal clients and listen to those clients and follow them in ways that we can help them. You know, and I think specifically, to your point, Alan, look, we, we help our companies better our clients better govern. We help our clients avoid risks that can get them in trouble, and we help our clients be more compliant with all the emerging and future standard that exists, too. And ultimately, if I combine those three things together, we make companies be healthier, and just be better. And so I think that's good business in general, I think it's a place that I know our team is excited to, to work and drive that mission, and help our clients be successful, be more successful, even more successful. And I think ultimately help them do that by allowing them to be better. And that's our, that's our mission. That's our goal. And I'm excited to operate in a world where, where there's a, there's an ever increasing number of companies who actually want to be better. And, and if we can help them do that, go through the process and better govern, avoid risk and be more compliant than, then that's, that's great for everyone.
Alan Fleischmann
That's great. You know, actual love is, you know, I marveled at this video, give some of these ads or videos that you've created it really as their videos you've, you've created to kind of personalize it. And I, I see that the heart, you know, kind of like the fast heartbeat moments when you're on a board in the middle of an m&a situation or you're, you know, you're trying to communicate with key stakeholders within a company. A tell us a little bit about the tools that you created diligent because we you see it visually, you actually see people utilizing it, you get a very different perspective and why it's not only essential, why it's tapped, and why you guys are number one, and that it really does create private conversations, interactions and the capability to make fast decisions, which need to happen more and more when you're at a board when you're bored.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, it's interesting, if you think about who our users are, we, we design software solutions for CEOs, CFOs and board members, to help them better communicate and collaborate in a way that is safe and secure, and easy to use, to make sure that we prepare the right data analytics and information to help them inform all of the decisions that they that they make. Whether it's in an m&a situation, whether it's in a crisis, whether it's over the course of normal doing business, we help to power all those all those conversations, all those discussions, all those actions, and what ultimately is good governance. And recently, through a couple of acquisitions, listening to our clients needs, we heard very, very clearly, the C suite, and the board needs better tools to help to understand and mitigate risk. There are many, many, if you look at what's happened over the course of last year, many of the issues that companies have faced have been elements of risk, whether it was you know, not understanding the diversity and treatment of your team, whether it was not understanding cyber risk and challenges, whether it's not understanding your company's impact on ESG. And now having activist investors target you because you're not as good steward of the resources you're using, and its impact on climate resources, etc. And then help those companies as well. When you look at the Biden administration, I think we all see more regulation around areas like climate coming from the SEC, and us having a set of tools to help you better do that to help you better comply. But ultimately, we hope it's more than just avoiding risk and compliance we have actually coming up and understanding what impact companies have on the environment which they operate, and and plotting a course to improve them over time is ultimately going to make the world we live in better safe, more fruitful for our children. And so, you know, we're excited to help to power and meet the needs of our clients across all elements of governance, risk and compliance.
Alan Fleischmann
It's interesting, like they're all feeds, I guess, your culture, compliance, capitalism, cybersecurity, when you're thinking about the, you know, the, the big issues, you know, a culture is a big one, I mean, but But again, the compliance capitalism, cybersecurity, capitalism in general.
Brian Stafford
We've talked so many times in different ways, in different venues around how the pandemic this last, you know, 15, 16 months, in many ways has accelerated so many different things, whether it's an accelerant of, of, of digitization or digital transformation, whether it's an acceleration of challenges we have and associated with class within the US or other places in the world or or, you know, who has more economic opportunity, but it's also accelerated a broad push around stakeholder capitalism and a push for organizations to need to be better, and need to be better stewards of their stakeholders and, and ultimately, that creates opportunities for tech companies to help to better address those and provide the tools to help those companies actually be better and navigate those all those challenges. And we've seen the pandemic has accelerated those needs quite rapidly.
Alan Fleischmann
That's great. Let's take a moment we go back to Diligent and what you're building because it's great, phenomenal. And I want people to hear a little bit about some of the major transformational moments you created last year, through acquisitions in general. But I want to not, you know, miss this moment to talk about you, personally, a little bit about your journey, because you've had an interesting and rich journey. As this starts very beginning a little bit here. Where are you from? And, and tell a little bit about your journey. I know that you had a pretty amazing career at McKinsey as well. And you got to, you know, degree University, Chicago and all that. But let's start more personally, like where you grew up how you grew up, because you had some pretty cool adventures along the way, both here and abroad, that I'd love people to hear a little bit and, and how much those things that kind of frame your, your ability to lead. Because you are. We were just we were talking before the show started. You're one of the most extraordinarily authentic CEOs I know. You don't know how to bullshit, I'll say it that way. I mean, you just, you've got a lot of humility in the way you you look at the world. But you also, you also demand a lot from, you know, from those around you. So you definitely have a purpose and a vision about what you want to accomplish. But you do a great deal of humility. So where did that start? Like where are you from? Tell us about the family. Where was Brian born and go for a little bit?
Brian Stafford
Brian was born in Van Nuys, California. So a little suburb of Los Angeles. My mother immigrated from India, to the US when she was 15 years old. Without much of a penny to her name. My father didn't grow up with much either. And, and ultimately, being at being a child of an immigrant parents. And a family who, you know, we were we were my parents did an awesome job of creating a middle class living and upgrading for for us. But, but you know, bridge the values of hard work, preach the values of education, you know, drilled by cellular relatives from an early age around, you know why? I remember many mom and where my mom would come back and say you only got a 93 out of 100 on this test. You know, let's talk let's let's talk and spend time about those seven questions that you missed. And unfortunately, that has colored me as well. I think if you were talking to our team, I kind of sometimes focus on the areas of improvement as opposed to celebrating the 93.6 as I did. That's been that's been drilled in on me from a very early age. I Good, good general childhood, my parents gave whatever they could to, to myself, my brothers went to school on the east coast.
Alan Fleischmann
Please, by the way, you brothers, don't know how many.
Brian Stafford
Yes, and two brothers. And I went to school on the east coast. I did to move away from my family to Japan.
Alan Fleischmann
That's right University.
Brian Stafford
Yeah. And so I went to school in Philly, at Penn and the Wharton School. And it was exciting to get away from my way from my family, as many kids do feel wonderful upbringing and living and every now and then you gotta, you gotta you gotta spread your wings. I then moved to Austin to work on a software company, kind of in the height of the .com boom, I started a spinoff from a software company, automotive e commerce software. And in less than three years, we grew to 100 million of revenue, and 350 people and as many businesses did in the 2001 2002 timeframe, when the.com bubble burst, we had to cut our business down to size in a in a slow fashion and eventually, divest divested, divested the business. I learned at the time, that the business that I'd created was more hype than substance. And that will play a role as we talked a little bit about the diligence story. I went to get a a PhD in applied math and computer science from University of Chicago. But realized after a couple years that I couldn't hack it and had to drop out and I was lucky enough for To give me a master's degree on layouts, and I decided to go to McKinsey and Company, because I realized that the company that I had started, you know, at the age of ripe old age of of 21, wasn't successful. And I wanted to realize I want to see how larger companies were successful. spent way more time than I ever thought I would at McKinseys and a little more than a decade there met some great people. It's really a great apprenticeship. Organization, build a lot of great skills, spend most of my time at McKinsey working with software companies and private equity companies, I kind of found that I was a bit of the torturer and consultant, I feel like there are people who like to advise and there are people who like to do, and despite being a really good organization, and great culture cauldron for talent, that I was ready to go back in the world and roll my sleeves and go and, and helped operate and, and, and grow companies, you know, as as luck or fate would have it at what habits. The person who ran finance for me at the startup that I created in in Austin, Texas, you know, many, many years before, had gone on to be the CFO of many other companies and had since retired and was a the normal audit committee chair. And he was the audit committee chair. And it's actually Vice Chair as well Diligent when Diligent was a publicly traded company. And he called me up and said, hey, I've got an opportunity for you. I'd like to come in and work at Diligent. And I spent a bunch of time with the team there. And what I saw ultimately, in the business were two things. One, a really, really hard working team, who were dedicated moreso than anyone I'd ever seen in software, on delighting clients on making sure your clients work successful. And that matters a ton. In general, but a especially if all of your users are CEOs and board members where they value, the quick response, they value, being able to get a lot get get a hold of someone on the phone. And so I thought that culture around delighting clients was an awesome thing to build around. And then the second was a bit of the thesis that governance was going to be a much bigger and bigger thing and would grow in importance. And I need to-
Alan Fleischmann
Can you define governance, so people understand it, because it's a term that you and I use a lot we know it well. But I was wondering whether people like the word community, whether they understand governance the same way.
Brian Stafford
It's funny, little known fact, but the most commonly searched for phrase with the word governance in it on Google is what is governance. So I think it is a very, a very fair thing to define. We refer it as governance as a prospect process between the company and its board to help to better manage and steward and steer that company successfully. And the reality is, is just about every organization of any size has a board, whether you're a local, private school or public school, you got a board. Whether you're a nonprofit organization, you have a board, whether you're a fortune 100 company, the Walmarts of the world, you have a board. And we offer tools that are incredibly scalable across any type of organization to help them better manage how that process works. That includes sharing materials that includes confidential communication, it includes minute taking conflict of interest, questionnaires, evaluations, surveys, etc. And it increasingly includes data from inside the organization or externally, that are served up to leaders to help them ask the right questions and make the right decisions. And, you know, if we bridge off of the conversation that we were having earlier, the amount of information that are out that is out there for leaders to consume, it's just daunting. And we try to do the best job we possibly can to make sure we can filter up the right information to those individuals so they can ask the right questions and make the right decisions. And that's ultimately what what we define as governance. And and the notion was back to the thesis was just the bar was just going to keep getting higher, there was going to be more focused on leadership and on board. And this was six years ago. And I think that has panned out and it's helped us to scale quite a bit globally and build deeper with our clients-
Alan Fleischmann
But you do do to find an industry that didn't exist, I think when you came over to lead Diligent, you know, this GRC governance risk management and, and compliance is an industry now we people think of it as an industry obviously leading in it, which is pretty cool.
Brian Stafford
If I go back and bridge off of the point, and my first experience was when we were more hype than I realized that the time-
Alan Fleischmann
That earlier business that you had, yeah-
Brian Stafford
Yeah, the earlier business that I started that was not successful during the.com timeframe. And on the diligence side, I probably taken things too much in the opposite direction, where, you know, it's all substance and not much hype, I'm, you know, we we joke, to the chagrin of my chief marketing officer, that we're the largest software as a service company that no one's ever heard of that, you know, you set you references, $7 billion, plus valuation, more than 500 million in revenue. And a very stable, sturdy, profitable company that doesn't pick it up and look for much press, but spends all of its time focused on on that very notion that we build off of which is delighting our clients and helping to have major impact for them in scale with them.
Alan Fleischmann
In the culture that you've done me, I definitely lead similarly to you. And something we've talked about in the show before is that, I tend to always say you're only as good as you are tomorrow. And there are moments of celebration that one should have, like you were saying earlier, and they are like, you know what, let's see going this what's the next thing to tackle? In some ways, though, that's the best way to leave. Because you're also you're in a customer focused business, and you have a lot of customers. So you want to make sure that you have lost sight of them when you're, you know, he gets the he gets off by Yes, focusing on yourself and not focusing on them, I guess, is how you'd really it. But it's also sounds like, it comes from the extreme opposite of the experience you went through in that earlier company, where you just sit on that we're going to do that, again, I wouldn't be very, I'm going to always be focused on tomorrow.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, it's like we all we all know, I mean, you're a product of your of your experiences, and whether it's my being a little bit more critical and focused on the areas that we missed, versus the areas that we got, right. And that clearly coming from my mother and my upper hand, or whether it's more of a focus on something that didn't work at a company I started earlier on my career and probably over rotating, you know, to make sure that focus more on what, what what did work. And I think I hope that, you know, at least the, you know, as a leader, it's good to understand why you do the things you do and how it's a product of you and who you are, it goes back to one of the things we were talking about earlier, which is how you surround yourself with a, you know, diverse team diverse way of thinking diverse in every way so they can compliment you. And you know, and hopefully you being a leader can be self aware enough to understand what your gaps are, knowing what you know, but also knowing what you don't know and, and hopefully use that to help to navigate better for long term for for you and your team.
Alan Fleischmann
It's wonderful, you're listening to leadership matters on Sirius XM, I'm your host, Alan Fleischmann. I'm here with Brian Stafford, the CEO of Diligent. And we're talking about lots of things we're talking about an industry that he leads and GRC governance, risk management and compliance, but also how he's led through this pandemic, and, and really dealt with some of the big issues of our time, which is how we overcome a systemic racism and create a culture that we want, both in the corporate world, and then more society around diversity. You've actually talked a lot, Brian about the need for corporate leaders to play a more visible role as society as well. And I know you well know your passion when that has happened. Whether it's it's happened on the civil society side or the the public arena, in politics or in government, but you know, you especially the United States, but certainly your global and that's something people should realize is how global diligent really is. And the issues that you're dealing with globally, are very similar the issues you're dealing with here now, that live the leadership initiatives that you've launched, for example, is one take, but what are the other areas you think CEOs like yourself and others who look to you? How should they be focused on when it comes to tackling social issues? And how important is that to you being a CEO?
Brian Stafford
Yes, it is. It's a it's a great question. And one that we've talked about a bit internally in our team and you know, occasionally get the opportunity to network with other CEOs and talk about it. One thing, at least from my perspective, that I would say is, as a CEO, the need to step up and play more of a role or more visible world socially. I think if you ask most CEOs, it's impart it's, it's Partially for two to three reasons. And you can argue with a third. But the first one that I think is actually quite important is there's been a void created, I would argue from a political leadership perspective over the course of the neck of last, you know, I don't know, X amount of time, you defined whatever time and not just in the US, but I think globally in different parts of the world. And so I think, for many CEOs, you know, and as the introvert, I wouldn't mind kind of receding in the background every now and then. But for many CEOs, you step up, because there's a void. And there's a void in leadership. And we have a multiple trillion dollar market cap companies, where you actually have leaders who can cast a really, really big impact on the world and the void of leadership, maybe politically, combined with just the scale of some of the organizations as created a void and a an opportunity for people who step up and actually say, you know, leadership is needed on key issues and step into the role. So I think, for many CEOs, I actually think an element of that is true, it's the void that exists, and how do you step up and fill and fill that void? I think the second one, in a related way is, I think many of us feel fortunate to have unique platforms, and lead a unique set of people. And ultimately, if you have that platform, and you have an opportunity to hopefully make the world different, maybe in a really, really small way. How can you not do that? How could you not, you know, take advantage of all that you've been given the platform, the privilege? And how could you not use that platform to do something good out of it. And I think historically, maybe CEOs have waited till, you know, after they're out of the rolls and CEO and try to do things with philanthropy or whatever else it might end up being. But you see more people taking, taking, taking the reins of that platform, while they're still in the CEO seats and helping to drive it. And then the third thing, which you can debate that but I actually really feel is true is so much of our organizations, our teams, our workforce, and to degree our clients want to follow organizations that have a purpose. You know, we have, you can debate how tight the labor market is today, depending on what the you know, what the unemployment rate looks like. But definitely, as a CEO, the labor market feels really tight to me, we're trying to hire a ton of roles. You see salaries and prices for talent continue to go up. And one of your differentiators is actually because people want to work for an organization that stands for something stands for something beyond just you know, I, you know, timecard in and timecard out and I think it is I think again, we talked about stakeholder capitalism, you know, the Business Roundtable. And well, if you've been talking about the purpose of an organization, Larry Fink as well, I BlackRock and I think people want to work for organizations that have a purpose and a soul. And so I think that supports CEOs leaning into issues where they can actually have an impact,
Alan Fleischmann
It's interesting way to look at it gives them an edge you were talking earlier, I was to think, gosh, all the risks that you take on by taking on initiatives, I mean, you could have been complacent or quiet when you took on the modern Leadership Initiative and created it, you know, because there's a lot of recipe out there candidly. But then there's also the risk is what you're saying, if you don't do something that shows the values, that shows the purpose, you're not going to, you're not going to be able to recruit and practically retain the talent because people are looking for a company that actually has a purpose. I mean, if you're part of the solution, to make capitalism work as lofty as that sounds, that's a purpose. I mean, if you're creating that opportunity.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, and, you know, to, you know, if you're fortunate enough to, to be a leader and have a platform, how, you know, how can you not use it be taken some of the privilege that you've been given and actually get back? I mean, even an example that I remember, you know, hit home for me, you know, when, you know, when the prior administration was radically reducing the number of visas offered to immigrants to come, you know, to the United States, like, how can I not put my, you know, my feet in the shoes of my mother who came over from India when she was 15. And the idea that, you know, it's there are things that I think hit home for many people in many different ways that I think are, are tough things not to at least speak out about that I think do matter, and I think it's been it's been great to see our team in our organization, say that kind of raising your hand or your voice around those things, the number of people who actually who are part of your team who identify with that, but might not have the same platform that you have. So it's also helping to give a voice to, to people who may have a less of a podium. And I think for the, for the organizations who argue, and there's been different companies who have done those who said, you know, we don't want to have any part in any role in that, and we're going to completely be completely stay out of all of those issues. Look, it's it's a vibrant marketplace for talent. And some people will go to those organizations, which is perfectly fine. I tell you, what, if there are days where, back to your point around putting yourself out there, there are days where I wish that, you know, you didn't have a perspective out there because your perspective might not resonate with with everyone. And I think like we live in a, a world of of opportunity, we need to create more of that opportunity and make it more inclusive, as we talked about, but we live in a world of opportunity. And I think people will follow organizations that they find are authentic, and identify with with each and every person's purpose. And you're seeing that equally among, among buyers among clients around, you know, people have choice. And so it's it's an interesting evolution, I think it has been accelerated by the last 15 months of the pandemic. But, but I think we'll see more of that in the future.
Alan Fleischmann
The fascinating thing for me, when I think about you, where you're building a Diligent is also your clients are global, and your employees are global, you literally have a footprint that as well. And, and yet, I bet you that your the issues that you're dealing with, in almost every Geography Now it's become increasingly similar, you know, and then, you know, the same employee issues of AI, when looking for a company with a purpose is probably as important in Ireland as it is in the US. And you know, and when you're talking about, you know, how you, you know, how you address these issues with your clients? They're probably not too similar to, you know, based on footprint.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, I mean, look, it's, we were, we were having a discussion amongst this, on this point with my team a little bit earlier today. But we operate in 70 plus countries around the world, we have 1700 people around the globe, more than half of our team is located outside of the United States. And, you know, we were talking in particular about someone was raising an issue around something a government official said in one of the countries that we operate in, you know, and what can we do, and what should we do? And, you know, and it's, it's, it's a similar type of set of issues that I saw, you know, companies who have headquarters in Georgia, you know, take up with the, with kind of the Voting Rights Act that was passed in Georgia, and I think there are, it goes back to a little bit of the the theme around political leadership and where it exists, and where it may not exist, there's all colors of this, you know, but, but I think increasingly, there are your team, the employee base potential recruits and your clients like to have organizations that have have a point of view, and like to have something they stand for, and, you know, our values are global in nature. And it doesn't mean that, that those values change depending on which country we operate in. But ultimately, making change and having an impact, you know, and on some of the issues we've talked about, you know, happened locally, happens in your communities and with your team. And so there's some issues that we may be more outspoken on and some other issues that we may work with our teams on locally and help to support them. And however, however we see, however, it makes no sense.
Alan Fleischmann
I love that. So I'm curious, you know, because how you navigate globally. I mean, you look you worked at McKinsey for many years, and you've been now CEO for several years. And you're building this this industry as well as a company are there certain axioms, a certain kind of like, like the you know, the Brian laws of leadership that you use to kind of keep yourself in gear, you know, whether you're looking yourself in the mirror or no, there are certain things that you share with your greater team, kind of the way you prioritize.
Brian Stafford
I, what I tell my team that there are three, maybe four things that I actually have a control over, and nothing moves beyond that, you know, the first is setting the pace, making sure we run really hard and really fast because there's a lot of opportunity ahead of us. Second, setting the bar defining what quality is, what real success is what impact we have our clients. And the third one is offering a little bit of strategic direction on the way you can debate how much of that I'm able to offer or not. And then the fourth, which goes back to a lot of things, we've talked about making sure that you can create an environment for teams, and making sure that you can cultivate talent and the right talent. And, and, and I think that's kind of, that's kind of all I can really do as a leader, and then try to get out of the way, and let talented people do really good things. You know, when I joined Diligent, we were 300 or so people and I found that, you know, there was, there were probably more things I could do, I could do and help to drive on my own and 1700 people, you know, you gotta get off for a little bit of direction and, you know, help to push behind the scenes, but in some ways, just get out of the way.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, but empower your people to kind of grow and hit the mark. Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully.
Brian Stafford
That's what you tried to do. And, you know, you have good days or bad days, where you feel like you're, you can always do better.
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, and I guess the other thing that's been advanced over the last year, is that your ability to now be in touch with so many of your people through through Zoom, you know, being online, you know, there's no barriers between you and many people when it comes to you, you know, sharing your insights or, or, you know, counsel the culture a little bit as well. Counsel, not cancel, not cancel people.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, no, I, Freudian slip on your part. They're, they're, like, it's, it's, it's been good. It's been good to connect with people, it's been good to be more present on video with people. But I do in our team sort of this for me immensely. You know, I occasionally it's, it's too easy to be transactional on video, everybody's got a meeting, after your meeting, etc. And, you know, I do I, I really will help to look for the opportunities where we can to get back together in person, I think the mentorship, I didn't The Apprentice, the apprenticeship of people on the way, I think it's those little extra conversations, it's running down in the elevator, with someone who you just met, who joined your company, you know, and getting to know them or learning from them. It's the walk to the subway, you know, where you connect with people in different way, it's the, let's run outside and get a coffee and you learn about someone in a different way. And so, as much as this is great an ability to connect as much as a greater ability for people to work from anywhere. I do think that so much of the work we do, and the impact that we can have on people, you know, comes from free flowing in person conversations, and am I just connecting, you know, over over a zoom, and it doesn't mean that you can't do some of that. Over over videos. I'm not I'm not saying that. But occasionally the ability to, you know, to go to a dinner and have the dinner on lights. And you learn about someone in their different ways, something that, that that I do want to make sure that we this desire to get back to the-
Alan Fleischmann
Again, it goes back to the idea of no matter how big you are, the personal side of this, the human side of this, which is why I think what diligence about is so incredible is that you are a technology, innovative software for service company, but you are all about the people. And if you want people to have that culture internally, you know, as you're serving your clients, you need that to be where you're connected with people as well. One thing I want to mention too, which is which is kind of important, you represent the one half of a pretty dynamic duo. You know, the if I had to pick a young power couple at the C suite in this country, but frankly, globally, it's you and Celine. And again, very similar how humble, hardworking, you got two kids and you managed quite a bit even during the pandemic of like to headquarters in one home. But tell us a little bit about that you met unsullied a little bit by because she's another dynamic leader that I consider what you guys are doing together and separate is pretty amazing.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, my, my better half and in every way. And since my wife, who is the Chief Financial Officer and Chief Operating Officer at T. Rowe Price. She and I met at McKinsey, and probably the best thing that came out of my, my, my decade or so at McKinsey. And yes, we we manage a three year old son and a five year old daughter in the middle of the pandemic, dealing with many of the challenges that many folks have been juggling kids at home and you know, putting people on zoom for school or whatever else might end up day. We were a great we're, we're a great team together. And I think I think each of us and what we do, hopefully makes the other person a little bit better at what they do. We remember when my wife got the opportunity at T. Rowe Price. You know, we were living in New York City, I had the best commute of all time, which is eight minutes on the subway, from my apartment to, to my office, and my wife got a great opportunity in Baltimore. So I made sure my board was okay with it. And we packed up our stuff and moved our family to Baltimore, my, my eight minute commute turned into a three hour commute on the train, on Monday mornings getting from the train station in Baltimore into into New York, Penn Station and the look you make it work you make sacrifices for, for the people you care about. And, you know, it's, it's, it's been, it's been great. It's been a great opportunity for her, it's been, it's been good for us, even over the course last, you know, 1516 months that, then all that family time together, as so many people have. Did, you know, Alan, I traveled on the road incessantly. And, you know, now you're in a mode where, you know, I get to make breakfast and dinner for my kids, you know, just about every day. And there are some days where I, I'd rather not.
Alan Fleischmann
The humility of that is pretty, pretty happy.
Brian Stafford
Feeding everybody roles in a five year old is not always the most enjoyable experience. But, but it's those moments that, you know, when people hit the road, again, it's those moments of humanity that, you know, I will look back on positively and you know, I know this period of time will change many of us change how we work and different dynamics on that. But But I want to pull off back and hold on to a bit of a family time that I've seen myself and our two kids have had over the last 15 months while the world opens up. And, you know, we probably hop on planes and trains at some point yet again.
Alan Fleischmann
No, it's amazing, though. Cecily went for being CFO, which is a pretty formidable job in itself at T. Rowe Price to becoming CEO, during this past year period, you executed on two major acquisitions and grew diligent profoundly over this period. And that and then really launched kind of groundbreaking initiatives like modern leadership and others. And you've got these two little kids. And at a time when nobody could come in and help, because, you know, there was just no way you were going to risk that and nobody could have the early parts of the pandemic in particular, but watching the two of you and seeing your family dynamic, and then see what you did professionally. And I don't think you're one who probably believes that there is a today's work life balance, it's just a little bit of both, and you try to get quality out of that out of each. You know, it's not balanced, you're seeking, it's more like, it's the, it's the composite.
Brian Stafford
Yeah, I mean, look, I love what I do, I'm really, really do. And so, you know, make the extra work time, you know, you you, you do what you enjoy doing. Now, I'm sure, every single one of lightly the 1700 people that diligent has seen my daughter, in particular, the five year old pop up on a, on a town hall or something in some way. And you know, it, and we all operate in that way. But you know, whether it's whether it's a recent hire, or the CEO, we're all sort of in this in this together in some way, shape, or form.
Alan Fleischmann
Well, that that goes back to the earliest as we're talking about humility and in leadership, as well. You know, I think like, I think I hope that there'll be some things that will stick with us, whether it's the quality of family time, or the, or the sharing of our personal lives a little bit more with others, that has come out of the last year, certainly the vulnerability that we share with one another, which it brings us together more, you've been doing a lot of that in your leadership in the last year. So hopefully we bring that out. But I know like you and you know, there's a there's that great feeling I want to get back out there, let's let's, let's be together, that's, that's your big ideas, and let's scale them together, which I know is a big part of your when you're looking to do and I'm looking forward to seeing you do it. So, Brian, this is amazing. I wish we had more time because there's so much more to talk about, about how we can make capitalism work, how we can actually harness power at the governance level at the board level in particular to really create opportunity for others and, and even more probably on technology, innovation and making that being more concrete inclusive. So we'll have to have you back on so we can talk about those topics even more so but but kudos to you when you're building and what you're doing at scale with Diligent and I know the best is yet to come. If there's one parting thought you wanted to leave us with about you and about village and I'd love to hear.
Brian Stafford
Oh jeez telephoning part and comment in such a wide ranging discussion. No, I mean, look, I think I think we as an organization, and myself as a leader, very much a work in progress. I think there's huge things that I aspire for Diligent to do. And there's many things that we have done incredibly well. But I think there's an exciting future ahead. And, you know, I think as a leader, you know, every day every day you learn something. And if you aren't learning something every day and getting better than you're going backwards, and who wants to go backwards, and so so now that's, that's it, and it's, uh, thanks for having me on Alan. And it's been a blast and love any opportunity we get to chat.
Alan Fleischmann
It's a big time. And we'll have you back on too, because I suspect that the issues that you're taking on are the very issues we need to scale. If we want to make things work for all of us. So we'll need to have you back on as well. But keep going keep doing your space stuff. Thank you, Brian. Real pleasure. Talk to you soon. Thanks.
